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Safety of BDG soap, FDA information, Therapeutic Claims and Labeling

This topic can be found at:
http://biodiesel.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/610109192/m/1487047533

June 02, 2011, 07:42 AM
Rick K
Safety of BDG soap, FDA information, Therapeutic Claims and Labeling
quote:
Originally posted by Fuzznag:

Rick

I think you are still confused regarding the chart that you keep referencing and the percentage of methanol it shows.

The chart is simply indicating the boiling point of the mixture it is not telling you how much methanol is left after reaching that temperature and it should not be viewed in that way as it is creating a false belief in residual methanol content that you keep refering to.

The amount of methanol remaining in your glycerol is all about evaporation and time not boiling you don't need to reach the boiling point for the methanol to evaporate but it would evaporate faster if it was boiling


Biodiesel / Methanol Solution
% MeOH--- Boiling Point, F
5.00 ---------- 209
4.00 ---------- 219
3.00 ---------- 232
2.00 ---------- 254
1.00 ---------- 298
0.50 ---------- 351
0.25 ---------- 411
0.00 ---------- 532

Glycerol / Methanol Solution
% MeOH --- Boiling Point, F
45.00 --------- 172
40.00 --------- 177
35.00 --------- 182
30.00 --------- 189
25.00 --------- 197
20.00 --------- 207
15.00 --------- 222
10.00 --------- 244
5.00 ---------- 288
1.00 ---------- 416
0.00 ---------- 550

I understand that the temperature is the boiling point, but what is the chart saying about the % MeOH in the first column.

Is it saying that there is 5% methanol left when it starts boiling at 288*F?
This has been the assumption about this chart.

So if you were to stop heating the BDG at 288*F does that mean that there is in the neighborhood of 5% MeOH left in the BDG? Again this has been the assumption.

Basically what does the first column represent?

Are you saying that it is possible that at 260*F there is less than 4% methanol left in the BDG or even none?

What most of us making soap are interested in is how much methanol will be left in the BDG after we have heated it to a specific temperature for a specific period of time. The amount of methanol left needs to be at least less than 4% and ideally much lower than even 1%. Are you saying that for that question this chart is of no use?


-Rick

http://www.knicenclean.com your single-most largest free BDG soaping content on the internet.
SAP Testing, Ingredient Properties, Soap Glossary and Recipes just to name a few.

Making Biodiesel Byproduct Soap Learn how to use your biodiesel byproducts to make great bar and liquid soap!!!

"Closing the loop on biodiesel production one bar at a time!"

Beware of the Dunning–Kruger effect.
June 02, 2011, 08:05 AM
Jon Heron
quote:
Are you saying that for that question this chart is of no use?

I am not Fuzznag but, Yes, that chart is of no use to you!
Like I stated above, that chart was created by a simulator and it was proven to be inaccurate in the post linked to above by farmer, throw away that chart.
Cheers,
Jon


___________________________

Simple schematic for a pump and heater control with a high limit
Sensor for the biodiesel/glycerin layer
June 02, 2011, 08:59 AM
Rick K
So if that is the case and no lab testing of BDG has been done at various temperatures we really have no idea of how much methanol is left in the BDG at any given temperature. Correct?

The assumption has been that at or above 260*F for a period of time and the BDG is safe and is no longer toxic. I hope that when I get the lab results back we find that the methanol percentage is much lower than 4% at 260*F.

Even then it will be a ball-park number as there are so many factors -- temperature, time, vacuum, agitation, percentage of soaps and other things that are not methanol or glycerol.

The final methanol content in the soap could be much lower than the starting point of the BDG after methanol recovery. It is also dependent upon what other ingredients are used to make the soap and also how much water is added.

IMHO anyone planning on selling their soap should have it tested for methanol content.


-Rick

http://www.knicenclean.com your single-most largest free BDG soaping content on the internet.
SAP Testing, Ingredient Properties, Soap Glossary and Recipes just to name a few.

Making Biodiesel Byproduct Soap Learn how to use your biodiesel byproducts to make great bar and liquid soap!!!

"Closing the loop on biodiesel production one bar at a time!"

Beware of the Dunning–Kruger effect.
June 02, 2011, 09:07 AM
caseyboy
I agree that the chart is pretty useless. The only thing that the chart claims is that the boiling point of the mixture (any mixture) goes up as the distillate is collected from the mix. That is a universal distiallation principle and should be fairly simple to understand. As the most volitile components are evaporated, the percentage of these components within the mixture are lower and thus it's boiling point is higher.

Boiling point and evaporation rate are not the same. If you have glycerin by-product that has been sitting for a year in the sun, I can assure you that you have lost methanol content. So, the age of your glycerin will have impact on the heat and time needed to reduce methanol content. As will ambient temperature, water content of glycerin, quality of biodiesel reaction, time of distillation, amongst many other variables.

If you leave glycerin in the sun, eventually all the methanol will evapoarte but it may take months or years. If you distill methanol at maximum 200F pot temp, you can evaporate all methanol much faster than at ambient temp and you will reach a point of negligible methanol content. You won't be "stuck" at 20% or whatever that chart says for the life of the glycerin. The real question is how long do you want to distill? And, what can you distillation setup handle?
June 02, 2011, 09:13 AM
Fuzznag
quote:
Originally posted by Rick K:
quote:
Originally posted by Fuzznag:

Rick

I think you are still confused regarding the chart that you keep referencing and the percentage of methanol it shows.

The chart is simply indicating the boiling point of the mixture it is not telling you how much methanol is left after reaching that temperature and it should not be viewed in that way as it is creating a false belief in residual methanol content that you keep refering to.

The amount of methanol remaining in your glycerol is all about evaporation and time not boiling you don't need to reach the boiling point for the methanol to evaporate but it would evaporate faster if it was boiling


Biodiesel / Methanol Solution
% MeOH--- Boiling Point, F
5.00 ---------- 209
4.00 ---------- 219
3.00 ---------- 232
2.00 ---------- 254
1.00 ---------- 298
0.50 ---------- 351
0.25 ---------- 411
0.00 ---------- 532

Glycerol / Methanol Solution
% MeOH --- Boiling Point, F
45.00 --------- 172
40.00 --------- 177
35.00 --------- 182
30.00 --------- 189
25.00 --------- 197
20.00 --------- 207
15.00 --------- 222
10.00 --------- 244
5.00 ---------- 288
1.00 ---------- 416
0.00 ---------- 550

I understand that the temperature is the boiling point, but what is the chart saying about the % MeOH in the first column.

Is it saying that there is 5% methanol left when it starts boiling at 288*F?
This has been the assumption about this chart.
Actually what it is saying is that if you start with a mixture of 5% methanol to 95% glycerol the theoretical boiling point is 288F. Which means that the whole mixture will be completely boiling when it reaches 288F, not lower. However this is a theoretical simulation which does not take into account the fact that as you are heating up to 288F then some of the methanol will already be evaporating so you will no longer have 5% methanol.

quote:
So if you were to stop heating the BDG at 288*F does that mean that there is in the neighborhood of 5% MeOH left in the BDG? Again this has been the assumption.
In theory that would be the case, however you would need to be able to take a 5% methanol to 95% glycerol mixture and heat it to 288F instantaneously (so there is no time for anything to evaporate as the temperature increases) see that it is boiling and then cool it back down again instantaneously (again ensuring that nothing evaporates as it cools down again) if it boiled at 288F then you would probably be able to measure around 5% methanol. However it is not possible to do this in a normal environment because if you start with 5% methanol 95% glycerol and heat it from ambient to 288F you will find that all of the way up you will be evaporating some of the methanol and so constantly reducing the percentage of methanol which would then theoreticallly be increasing the overall mixture boiling point.

quote:
Basically what does the first column represent?
The first column simply represents the amount of methanol in the mixture corresponding to the boiling point. It is part of the X axis on a graph with boiling point being the Y axis.

quote:
Are you saying that it is possible that at 260*F there is less than 4% methanol left in the BDG or even none?
yes, absolutely that is what I am saying. You have not considered time in any of your posts. So if you heat your BDG up to say 260F really quickly and then cool it down really quickly you will have some methanol left (probably significantly less than 4%) however if you heat your BDG to 260F and hold it there for an hour you are likely to have significantly less methanol than in the previous test just as if you heat your BDG to 200F and held it there for several hours you would also have significantly less methanol probably down in the ppm levels. In the same way if you take the BDG sample put it in an open top container and leave it in the sun for six months you will also find there is hardly any methanol left because it has mostly evaporated. Nothing to do with boiling points.

quote:
What most of us making soap are interested in is how much methanol will be left in the BDG after we have heated it to a specific temperature for a specific period of time. The amount of methanol left needs to be at least less than 4% and ideally much lower than even 1%. Are you saying that for that question this chart is of no use?
This is the first time that you have mentioned time at temperature and as you shoul be able to see from the above point it is time at temperature that affects the final methanol content. So what time and at what temperature will be dependent upon what contaminants you have and the configuration of the still etc.

So just to clarify, the chart is about predicting boiling points in an ideal world, it really can't be read backwards to predict residual methanol based upon the ultimate temperature a batch is heated to.
June 02, 2011, 09:29 AM
Fuzznag
quote:
Originally posted by Rick K:
So if that is the case and no lab testing of BDG has been done at various temperatures we really have no idea of how much methanol is left in the BDG at any given temperature. Correct?

The assumption has been that at or above 260*F for a period of time and the BDG is safe and is no longer toxic. I hope that when I get the lab results back we find that the methanol percentage is much lower than 4% at 260*F.

Even then it will be a ball-park number as there are so many factors -- temperature, time, vacuum, agitation, percentage of soaps and other things that are not methanol or glycerol.

The final methanol content in the soap could be much lower than the starting point of the BDG after methanol recovery. It is also dependent upon what other ingredients are used to make the soap and also how much water is added.

IMHO anyone planning on selling their soap should have it tested for methanol content.

Rick

Just as a matter of interest what percentage of other ingredients do you use. For example if you start with BDG with 5% methanol and then add 50% water or other ingredients, you have immediately reduced the % methanol to 2.5% (assuming all done by weight)
So simply looking at the methanol content of the glycerol is only part of the overall picture.
June 02, 2011, 10:08 AM
Rick K
Thanks guys,
That clears things up a bit about the chart.

Additional ingredients depend on what you are trying to add to the soap, hardness, lather etc. For example Caseyboy uses BDG from coconut oil or PKO, he may not need to add anything to his bar soap for hardness or lather, but those of us that use soft oils such as soybean oil may find that adding coconut oil helps with hardness and lather.

All of the measurements of ingredients are done by weight.

Additional ingredients for bar soap from "soft oil" BDG can be as low as 10% and as high as you want depending on what properties you want to add. The BDG can be the bulk of a recipe or it can be used as just an additive. Water is also a factor and in bar soap can be as low as 10% or more depending on what type of bar soap you are making.

Additional ingredients for liquid soap may or may not be needed depending on what the soap needs. The water in a liquid soap depends on how concentrated you want your soap to be. I like to use 30% - 50% water depending on the percentage of soaps that are in the BDG.

So you can see that the initial methanol content can be reduced significantly depending on the recipe that will be used.

Once I have some numbers back on the BDG tests at various time/temperatures I will know where I am starting from with my BDG and I can compare it to the methanol content results for the soaps I had tested. I am expecting another set of methanol content results for my soaps by the end of this week or early next week.

The reason I started this post is because I get tons of emails asking about methanol safety. As I was researching I found the information about 4% being toxic and requiring special labeling and packaging.

Being as we have no hard evidence of methanol content in our BDG after methanol distillation I thought it would be good to re-open the topic. The goal is to some concrete safety numbers and some good information as to where we are at with the BDG after methanol distillation.


-Rick

http://www.knicenclean.com your single-most largest free BDG soaping content on the internet.
SAP Testing, Ingredient Properties, Soap Glossary and Recipes just to name a few.

Making Biodiesel Byproduct Soap Learn how to use your biodiesel byproducts to make great bar and liquid soap!!!

"Closing the loop on biodiesel production one bar at a time!"

Beware of the Dunning–Kruger effect.
June 12, 2011, 01:18 PM
fuelfarmer
I met someone today that is a toxicologist and works for a consulting company. He has done some work in the soap industry and has a lot of contacts relating to safety testing and labeling. I don't know what his services would cost, but he said he could help with the methanol issue in soap.
June 15, 2011, 12:43 PM
freesoul
http://www.sdklabs.com/SDK.asp?group=n6

$35-40 per sample for methanol content testing
they require 25-50ml of sample



June 25, 2011, 08:41 AM
Legal Eagle
Next time you hear the words "the soaping community" this is something that should spring to mind:

New Bill to Modernize 1938 Regulations that Allow Harmful Chemicals in Shampoos, Cosmetics

WASHINGTON, June 24, 2011 /PRNewswire-USNewswire/ -- Today, Rep. Jan Schakowsky, D-Ill., Rep. Ed Markey, D-Mass., and Rep. Tammy Baldwin, D-Wisc., introduced the Safe Cosmetics Act of 2011 (HR 2359), which would update the 1938 federal cosmetics laws that allow chemicals linked to cancer, birth defects, learning disabilities and other illnesses into the personal care products we use daily on our bodies.

"The growing number of reports of serious health problems arising from the use of dangerous chemicals in personal care products shows a need to update our laws and protect men, women, and children from harmful exposure," said Rep. Schakowsky. "Currently, manufacturers are not required to disclose all their ingredients on labels and the FDA has no power to supervise the use of toxic chemicals in cosmetics."

Recent scandals that have rocked the cosmetics industry include a study that found arsenic and lead in lip gloss and other cosmetics. In April, the federal Occupational Safety and Health Administration warned salons to stop using keratin hair-straightening products like Brazilian Blowout, which contain the carcinogen formaldehyde and have been linked to hair loss, nose bleeds and breathing problems.

"When there are cancer-causing chemicals in popular hair-straighteners and baby shampoos and neurotoxins like lead in makeup, you know the regulatory system is broken," said Lisa Archer, director of the Campaign for Safe Cosmetics. "Industry self-regulation just isn't working. This bill recognizes that consumers have a right to safe personal care products and that companies have a responsibility to ensure their products are safe."

Rep. Markey commented, "The personal care products that make us clean should not make us sick. The Safe Cosmetics Act will close a gaping hole in the federal law that allows potentially toxic chemicals to remain in the cosmetic products we use every day."

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For more info:
www.safecosmetics.org/safecosmeticsact

http://www.prnewswire.com/news...etics-124505118.html



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