BIODIESEL & SVO DISCUSSION FORUMS





Sponsors    Biodiesel and SVO Forums Home    Forums  Hop To Forum Categories  Biodiesel  Hop To Forums  Making Soap from the Glycerine by-product    Safety of BDG soap, FDA information, Therapeutic Claims and Labeling
Page 1 2 3 4 
Go
New
Find
Notify
Tools
Reply
  
Safety of BDG soap, FDA information, Therapeutic Claims and Labeling
 Login/Join
 
Member
posted Hide Post
oops! Sorry, didn't check your original link, that was the only post I had archived on the subject...
Rick, Where is that chart from?
Cheers,
Jon
 
Location: Wellington County, Ontario Canada | Registered: February 07, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
member

posted Hide Post
The Guide has had information on safe levels of methanol for YEARS now, taken from the notorious FDA at that. It is nice to see that some are finally catching up though ...

Concentrated frozen orange juice contains methanol,as does all colas, anything containing aspartame (see http://dorway.com/ for tons of info on this) metabolizes into formaldehyde and methanol.

If you are waiting for the FDA to be the only "official", therefore (to you)acceptable, source of information just think of the enormous amount of known junk that this same department has authorised, aspartame included, along with a myriad of other junk that are health hazards, well ...

Of course considering that many people already use highly questionable junk in their soaps and do not consider them to be a concern for themselves or their children it is no surprise to see this road being taken.

When biodiesel glycerin is used in soap making it isn't a Betty Crocker cake mix (well, ok, in one instance it is) and by and large there are hundreds of people worldwide doing this how it is going to be possible to enforce methanol levels by depending on a government bureaucratic agency ? Isn't it considerably more intelligent to make the information available and then let those with a conscience control themselves?

Who's samples will they use to analyze in order to establish the "standard" ? I don't recall anyone being voted in as spokesperson for the entire biodiesel glycerin soap making community, and I would also further that with saying that it is the utmost arrogance to assume that position unilaterally.

I cannot say I am at all surprised though.



** Biodiesel Glycerine Soap - The Guide
- on 5 continents helping people make & sell soap from the Biodiesel Glycerine.


 
Location: :-) Great White North eh ? | Registered: December 10, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
member
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Jon Heron:
oops! Sorry, didn't check your original link, that was the only post I had archived on the subject...
Rick, Where is that chart from?
Cheers,
Jon


Jon, It's quoted on the very first post on that link.

http://biodiesel.infopop.cc/ev...281081072#2281081072

So if that chart is correct, unless you are removing methanol under vacuum at 288*F there will still be 5% methanol. And according to 16CFR1500.14 it's still dangerous.

I have had my soaps tested for methanol content and they contain exponentially less methanol than that, but I use vacuum distillation and add other natural ingredients for great lather and hardness.

Anyway... here is a quote from 16CFR1500.14, have a look at the second (4) paragraph about proper labeling... Makes one think twice about how far to take the distillation process. Luckily I had already gone there with methanol distillation.

quote:

Consumer Product Safety Commission

1500.14 Products requiring special labeling under section 3(b) of the act.

(4) Methyl alcohol (methanol) and mixtures containing 4 percent or more
by weight of methyl alcohol (methanol).


(4) Methyl alcohol (methanol). Because death and blindness can result from the ingestion of methyl alcohol, the label for this substance and for mixtures containing 4 percent or more by weight of this substance shall include the signal word ‘‘danger,’’ the additional word ‘‘poison,’’ and the skull and crossbones symbol. The statement of hazard shall include ‘‘Vapor harmful’’ and ‘‘May be fatal or cause blindness if swallowed.’’ The label shall also bear the statement ‘‘Cannot be made nonpoisonous.’’


The goal here is to be sure our BDG soaps are safe, nothing more nothing less.
And of course as usual let the soaper decide by making information available.

Happy Soaping!


-Rick

http://www.knicenclean.com your single-most largest free BDG soaping content on the internet.
SAP Testing, Ingredient Properties, Soap Glossary and Recipes just to name a few.

Making Biodiesel Byproduct Soap Learn how to use your biodiesel byproducts to make great bar and liquid soap!!!

"Closing the loop on biodiesel production one bar at a time!"

Beware of the Dunning–Kruger effect.
 
Location: S.E. Michigan | Registered: April 15, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
member
posted Hide Post
For those interested.

http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/...6cfr1500_main_02.tpl

http://edocket.access.gpo.gov/...pdf/16cfr1500.14.pdf


-Rick

http://www.knicenclean.com your single-most largest free BDG soaping content on the internet.
SAP Testing, Ingredient Properties, Soap Glossary and Recipes just to name a few.

Making Biodiesel Byproduct Soap Learn how to use your biodiesel byproducts to make great bar and liquid soap!!!

"Closing the loop on biodiesel production one bar at a time!"

Beware of the Dunning–Kruger effect.
 
Location: S.E. Michigan | Registered: April 15, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
posted Hide Post
Too many variables to make that chart accurate. What if one uses 18% methanol by volume or 22%? And I was under the impression that the glycerin had about 20% methanol in it yet the chart starts at 45%?

At any rate the glycerin is not used straight, there is quite a bit of water added as well as shea butter in our case for our bar soap. We have a lot of vegans and raw foodists who use and love our soap, and I've only heard one person in 3 years remark that they had any type of allergic reaction when applying some to a small area on her hand- and she admitted she was allergic to many many things.

We thought about labelling for allergies but decided against it based not only on our experience but the fact tht people with allergies are responsible for themselves to try things in small areas first. We are always happy to talk about our process and where the glycerin comes from. We rarely use peanut oil and if we do its a gallon or so in a 200 gallon batch. We prefer to live in a society where there are not warning notices on every single thing and people take personal responsibility for themselves.



 
Registered: April 28, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
posted Hide Post
quote:
Jon, It's quoted on the very first post on that link.

Got it, thanks.
That chart was based on a simulator and as is shown by farmer in that same post, it is inaccurate based on his real world numbers and testing.

Too bad there wasn't an easier test method for the methanol content...
I demeth the glycerin at the same time as the biodiesel while under vacuum at no more than 175F. Then if I want to make soap I throw some chunks of the solid glycerin in a big pot and bring it up to +300F on the fire, any methanol thats left after that is not likely to do any harm IMO.
I dont sell any soap though either... Maybe one day... Wink
Cheers,
Jon
 
Location: Wellington County, Ontario Canada | Registered: February 07, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post



member
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by freesoul:
Too many variables to make that chart accurate. What if one uses 18% methanol by volume or 22%? And I was under the impression that the glycerin had about 20% methanol in it yet the chart starts at 45%?


The starting percentage of the methanol has nothing to do with how much is left after distillation. Distillation has to do with vapor pressure and temperature. The "pot" temperature will not rise until enough distillate is removed for the vapor pressure to change. If you heat the BDG to 288*F and the chart that is commonly referenced is accurate there will be 5% methanol left in the BDG.

Freesoul,

I know you do the best to make an excellent product. I know you also care about your customers. I know you would NEVER willingly produce a product that is harmful. Adding other natural ingredients does have a significant effect on the PPM of methanol in your soaps. I've tried your soaps and they are great products.

The fact remains that according to 16CFR1500.14 4% is where the Consumer Product Safety Commission states that it must be labeled as dangerous.

I was shocked to find that out and wanted to share the findings.

I was also quite happy to find out that the PPM of my soaps was exponentially lower than that.

You are correct it's up to the consumer to know their own health issues when shopping, that is not in question.

Bottom line is this, although you may not feel the need to find out regulatory information on PPM of methanol in a topical product or have your soap tested for PPM methanol other BDG soapers are interested.

One fellow BDG soaper is being questioned by some of the customers her soaps are being marketed to. These customers as well as some of mine want the lab data and supporting regulations about methanol safety.

We are simply sharing our findings with the BDG community, that's what a forum is for.


-Rick

http://www.knicenclean.com your single-most largest free BDG soaping content on the internet.
SAP Testing, Ingredient Properties, Soap Glossary and Recipes just to name a few.

Making Biodiesel Byproduct Soap Learn how to use your biodiesel byproducts to make great bar and liquid soap!!!

"Closing the loop on biodiesel production one bar at a time!"

Beware of the Dunning–Kruger effect.
 
Location: S.E. Michigan | Registered: April 15, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
member
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Jon Heron:
Too bad there wasn't an easier test method for the methanol content...


Agreed!

The test is pretty cheap and you don't need to do it all the time, it's just really nice to know where you are at and have that supporting documentation for your customers.


-Rick

http://www.knicenclean.com your single-most largest free BDG soaping content on the internet.
SAP Testing, Ingredient Properties, Soap Glossary and Recipes just to name a few.

Making Biodiesel Byproduct Soap Learn how to use your biodiesel byproducts to make great bar and liquid soap!!!

"Closing the loop on biodiesel production one bar at a time!"

Beware of the Dunning–Kruger effect.
 
Location: S.E. Michigan | Registered: April 15, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Rick K:
The starting percentage of the methanol has nothing to do with how much is left after distillation. Distillation has to do with vapor pressure and temperature. The "pot" temperature will not rise until enough distillate is removed for the vapor pressure to change. If you heat the BDG to 288*F and the chart that is commonly referenced is accurate there will be 5% methanol left in the BDG.



My question was how can that chart possibly be accurate if it claims a starting value of 45% methanol content at 172F when everything I have ever read was that there was approximately 20% methanol in the glycerin?



 
Registered: April 28, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
member
posted Hide Post
I do not know if that chart is correct, but it is the chart that everyone references.

Since methanol will start evaporating out of a 45% solution at 172*F and our methanol concentration is 20% - 30% you should not get any distillate until the temperature gets above 197*F for 25% or 207*F for 20% methanol. This kind of holds true when I am distilling the methanol. But now that I use vacuum distillation the temperatures are different. I typically recover 25% - 30% methanol back during distillation. However the purity goes down as the temperature goes up -- this is because if there is any water in the BDG it is also evaporating.

I am going to work with the lab and send them samples of BDG at different temperatures and another set with different temperatures under vacuum. I'm thinking 260*F, 300*F and 350*F with no vacuum, any hotter than that and it starts smoking.

I will post that information when I get the results back. The turn-around for my soaps was pretty quick.


-Rick

http://www.knicenclean.com your single-most largest free BDG soaping content on the internet.
SAP Testing, Ingredient Properties, Soap Glossary and Recipes just to name a few.

Making Biodiesel Byproduct Soap Learn how to use your biodiesel byproducts to make great bar and liquid soap!!!

"Closing the loop on biodiesel production one bar at a time!"

Beware of the Dunning–Kruger effect.
 
Location: S.E. Michigan | Registered: April 15, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
posted Hide Post
We have a reflux column so we get very pure methanol because the water condenses back into the pot.



 
Registered: April 28, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
posted Hide Post
quote:
However the purity goes down as the temperature goes up -- this is because if there is any water in the BDG it is also evaporating.


Hey Rick, I don't think this is totally correct. Your loss of purity is a function of limitations of your reflux column. Any spirit distiller would tell you the same. I would say that your reflux column would need adjustments in any or all of: column height, column width, packing material.

You should be able to blast the pot heat and still get pure methanol with the right setup. At a certain temperature your reflux column is not keeping up with your distillates.
 
Location: earth | Registered: November 23, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post



member
posted Hide Post
That is the case until you start getting an azeotrope of water and methanol as the head temperature rises above 159*F.

But you are probably right on the column.

Since I have added the vacuum I probably need to tweak the column size, packing, pot temperature and or cooling of the top of the reflux column.

I guess that would also indicate that the methanol volume is quite low by the time the head temp rises above 159*F and I am probably into the water, I will have to monitor the purity just before and after the head temperature starts to rise. Before I had added a vacuum it was somewhere near 330*F.

I have not had my BDG tested for methanol I have only had my soaps tested. I am about to send in a series of BDG tests, one set without a vacuum and one set under vacuum.


-Rick

http://www.knicenclean.com your single-most largest free BDG soaping content on the internet.
SAP Testing, Ingredient Properties, Soap Glossary and Recipes just to name a few.

Making Biodiesel Byproduct Soap Learn how to use your biodiesel byproducts to make great bar and liquid soap!!!

"Closing the loop on biodiesel production one bar at a time!"

Beware of the Dunning–Kruger effect.
 
Location: S.E. Michigan | Registered: April 15, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
posted Hide Post
Technically you are both right.

As the OUTLET temperature of your reflux column goes up the purity will go down. Also how FAST you can run the distillation will depend on how the reflux column is set up. A bigger/better column will let you run much faster and you can hit the main pot with as much heat as you can manage.

FYI methanol and water do not form an azeotrope. Water and Ethanol do though which is probably where the confusion comes from.
 
Registered: February 25, 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post
member
posted Hide Post
I bet that I am either into the water by the end of the cycle or I need to size up the column. By the end my purity is only at about 90%.

I've not been trying to get the purity up at the end, I have been more concerned with pushing the BDG as far as I can to get as much of the methanol out as humanly possible.


-Rick

http://www.knicenclean.com your single-most largest free BDG soaping content on the internet.
SAP Testing, Ingredient Properties, Soap Glossary and Recipes just to name a few.

Making Biodiesel Byproduct Soap Learn how to use your biodiesel byproducts to make great bar and liquid soap!!!

"Closing the loop on biodiesel production one bar at a time!"

Beware of the Dunning–Kruger effect.
 
Location: S.E. Michigan | Registered: April 15, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
posted Hide Post
that's just it, with the right column your head temp never gets that high. it's all scientific formulas to figure out the needed dimensions for your column. Your pot can be 300F and with the right reflux setup you should still get 99% methanol. It's not a linear relationship. Your reflux ratio might also need adjustment.

If you want some great reading on this, check out the greatest website on distilling:

Home Distiller
Home Distiller - Reflux Design

Excellent educational resource for anyone who wants to be good at methanol recovery.
 
Location: earth | Registered: November 23, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
member
posted Hide Post
I did the math back when I put the system together, however now it has a vacuum.

I am building my larger setup now, how does the vacuum effect the calculation on the column?


-Rick

http://www.knicenclean.com your single-most largest free BDG soaping content on the internet.
SAP Testing, Ingredient Properties, Soap Glossary and Recipes just to name a few.

Making Biodiesel Byproduct Soap Learn how to use your biodiesel byproducts to make great bar and liquid soap!!!

"Closing the loop on biodiesel production one bar at a time!"

Beware of the Dunning–Kruger effect.
 
Location: S.E. Michigan | Registered: April 15, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
posted Hide Post
Vacuum will definitely have an affect on column size, i'm just not sure how to calculate it.

our column is 4 meters high, 4 inches wide and sits atop of a 1000 gallon tank. we blast it with uninterrupted heat.
 
Location: earth | Registered: November 23, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post



member
posted Hide Post
You know having thought about it for a bit now, you guys are exactly right.
If the head temperature is rising like that now with vacuum it's acting more like a pot still than a reflux column.

We are building ours from a 500 gallon tank. I am going to do some research about how much larger my column needs to be under vacuum.

Perfect timing...


-Rick

http://www.knicenclean.com your single-most largest free BDG soaping content on the internet.
SAP Testing, Ingredient Properties, Soap Glossary and Recipes just to name a few.

Making Biodiesel Byproduct Soap Learn how to use your biodiesel byproducts to make great bar and liquid soap!!!

"Closing the loop on biodiesel production one bar at a time!"

Beware of the Dunning–Kruger effect.
 
Location: S.E. Michigan | Registered: April 15, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
posted Hide Post
I'm no expert on distillation but we have a 4' long 3" pipe filled with stainless steel shavings from a machine shop and monitor the temp at the top of the column before it goes to a condensor and like I say we get extremely pure methanol every time. This is on top of a 55 gal drum pot still



 
Registered: April 28, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
  Powered by Social Strata Page 1 2 3 4  
 

Sponsors    Biodiesel and SVO Forums Home    Forums  Hop To Forum Categories  Biodiesel  Hop To Forums  Making Soap from the Glycerine by-product    Safety of BDG soap, FDA information, Therapeutic Claims and Labeling

© Maui Green Energy 2000 - 2014