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B100 does not work in 2009 Jetta TDI
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quote:
Originally posted by jburke:
quote:
the oil level did get 'overfull' even when on diesel.

Thats interesting. I've also read that reported for a couple other non VW TDI DPF equipped cars.
One was really severe.
FWIR overfilling will lead to problems with the catalytic converter.


So...what is one to do if one notices oil "overfilling" between services/oil changes??
Thnx
 
Location: Orlando, FL | Registered: December 13, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by mdl3r1:
quote:
Originally posted by jburke:
quote:
the oil level did get 'overfull' even when on diesel.

Thats interesting. I've also read that reported for a couple other non VW TDI DPF equipped cars.
One was really severe.
FWIR overfilling will lead to problems with the catalytic converter.


So...what is one to do if one notices oil "overfilling" between services/oil changes??
Thnx
Personally I'd drain it and change it. Expensive.
 
Location: Colorado | Registered: March 20, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Good luck with that guys. I'm going with the science on this one. After seeing the presentation from Chevron (by the way, they just came out with a new oil that is supposed to resist some of the biodiesel dilution better).

As a business, I can't bet my future on the theory that it really does work and that everyone is wrong. As a consumer, if biodiesel doesn't work in these cars, I'll be sticking with 2006 models until they get too old for me, then I'll move on to electric and/or electric hybrids that run on gasoline...


Jason Burroughs
DieselGreen Fuels
www.dieselgreenfuels.com
512-873-4882
 
Location: Austin, TX | Registered: September 21, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Well I've seen the slideshow presentation by Chevron comparing BD and PD dilution in engine oil and I wasn't that impressed. Where are the hard numbers showing exactly how much of each were in there after a specific run duration? Where are the numbers showing how fast ULSD evaporates out of engine oil compared to BD? Besides which, asking Chevron to compare petrodoiesel to biodiesel is like asking Fidel Castro to compare Communism to Democracy. I only wish I had been present during that sales meeting- "As a representative of big oil I'd like to introduce you all to our revolutionary new miracle fuel! It burns like diesel, lubricates like engine oil, evaporates like water leaving no harmful chemicals behind, and contains virtually no sulfur! Oh and by the way, don't try running biodiesel in these new engines because as you can see in this shiny chart I've prepared, BD doesn't have any of these magic properties."
Talk about snake oil....
 
Registered: May 30, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Ravenflight, while I appreciate your desire to get to "the truth", you seem to avoid the possibility that the truth may just be that it doesn't work.

I met Gary Parsons from Chevron, and I talked to him in depth about their research.

Here are some facts:

biodiesel has a higher evaporative point than diesel. this means that diesel will evaporate out of the PCV system easier than biodiesel. Exactly how much is unknown to me.

biodiesel is more polar than ZDDP, an anti-wear component of engine oil that sticks to the sides of the engine walls. Because of this, biodiesel replaces ZDDP and you have biodiesel acting as an engine lubricant. Biodiesel is not as good a lubricant, therefore your engine suffers. Exactly how much is unknown to me.

Remember that these big companies do, at a corporate level, want to reduce our use of alternatives and promote the status quo. But when you talk to the *people*, it's not always a cloak and dagger conspiracy. What I took away from the conversations and presentation is that the emissions systems have been pushed to the limit and beyond. Rather than re-engineering the system in a way that we would all have liked them to, they reprogrammed the injectors to squirt fuel into the emissions system. Whether biodiesel is a fine fuel for an engine is not really up for debate - we all know it is. But whether biodiesel is a usable fuel to combust crud in a DPF system that has just been designed without even considering biodiesel as a possible fuel is a whole different question.

You're letting your emotions get in the way of science, and that's just not going to help. A healthy dose of skepticism is one thing, but you're asking for more evidence than I think a reasonable person needs to come to the conclusion that high blends of biodiesel used in a vehicle with a DPF will cause eventual engine problems without non-standard maintenance, in some cases.


One last point by point comment:

"So to recap, the only issue with running biodiesel in my '09 TDI is it gets into the crankcase, same as petrodiesel does, except BD doesn't magically evaporate from engine oil like petrodiesel allegedly does."
Jason - correct, it doesn't evaporate due to a higher evaporative point.

"Except it appears petrodiesel doesn't evaporate that easily either. I can't say I am fully convinced."
Jason - agreed, the data is not in yet on how often or quickly ULSD overfills the engine. BUT, Chevron found that if starting with B5, for example, you wound up with B40 after x number of miles - demonstrating that the percentage of biodiesel in the engine oil is much higher over time (proving that the diesel is evaporating while the biodiesel is not).


"If the 'exhaust gas temperature out of range' was caused by the BD, wouldn't the sensor have picked it up within a few minutes of running your first full tank of BD? Why would the exhaust gas temperature only change after running for 2000 miles on the stuff?"
Jason - the regen cycle only happens periodically, which is when it would check the EGT temp to know if it's ok to push fuel down. They wouldn't want to push fuel in the cold, or you'd wind up with an accumulation of fuel in the DPF. If you put a bunch in there, then got ignition, you could have an explosion. Because of that risk, they are very conservative in when it regens.

"I'm thinking maybe the sensor went out of whack and the dealer mechanic blamed it on your bumper sticker. If my engine oil is going to be contaminated with fuel either way, wouldn't it be better to be contaminated with biodiesel versus petrodiesel?"
Jason - see above discussion about how it is NOT better to have biodiesel in your engine oil due to the strongly "polar" nature of biodiesel.

Of course you're always free to experiment with your own vehicle - and were I not a vendor, I would probably do the same. Since I'm a vendor, I'm not willing to go down that road.


So, what exactly is your position on this issue? I see you shooting down other theories, even calling it snake oil, but I haven't seen exactly what you think is going on. I hope that I've demonstrated more understanding of these issues than you may have realized, and provided a solid basis for at least some of the claims that there is a real problem.


Jason Burroughs
DieselGreen Fuels
www.dieselgreenfuels.com
512-873-4882
 
Location: Austin, TX | Registered: September 21, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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A new article was just published about the oil developed by Chevron that neutralizes the organic acids created by biodiesel in the crankcase.

http://www.biodieselmagazine.c....jsp?article_id=3508

Validates much of what I've been saying, hope it helps everyone understand the issue.


Jason Burroughs
DieselGreen Fuels
www.dieselgreenfuels.com
512-873-4882
 
Location: Austin, TX | Registered: September 21, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post



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It seems to me there will be a science-based work-around here. That actually works.


David White
Atlanta, GA
 
Registered: February 26, 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by mdl3r1:
Awesome post, Jason! Thanks a bunch for the update!! Indeed, you learned a lot, and so did we, thanks to you! May you be blessed for it all. Big Grin

Quick question: would a tankful of B100 "here and there" hurt my 2009 Jetta TDI, meaning, would an oil change after a few tankfuls 'restore" and "flush" out the Bio outta the oil crankcase, thus nullifying a short-term slight, perhaps negligible effect?

And, would those occasional tankfuls, or a few gallons into my D2 tank, result for sure in a CEL or even an actual DPF problem?

Or, would, as I hope, a few gallons here and there would not bother anything as long as I go back to D2? I have a friend who brews it and I can see putting it a few gallons added to the D2 I been running since I bought her, or an even more rare b100 tankful, that i would then have D2 tankfuls after?

Thanks in advance..


Miguel

I was reading a article that the injector lines are being recalled due to cracking on this generation of TDI cars,2009 etc Could this be a source of Oil contamination ???? Only an engine that is not broke in properly or badly worn out should have enough raw fuel getting past the rings to cause enough noticable accumulation of fuel in the crankcase.
 
Registered: January 09, 2012Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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CEL

I had my CEL light up and took it for a test at the local VW shop. The first thing they said was you were running biodiesel ( I wasn't). It was the middle of winter and I hadn't run bio since the last tune up and oil change. After the $150 test, they told me it was my EGR valve was dirty and it would cost $600 to fix. I said thanks, but I would wait until it failed constantly. It went away once I started following the start up procedures in the manual exactly, weird. So now, I put my foot on the brake, turn the key on, wait for the glow plug light to go off and start. No problem. I am running 75 - 100% biodiesel. I do change my oil every 5K, just in case.
 
Location: Millersville, MD | Registered: August 17, 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I have a Peugeot 307, 2004. Does anyone know how it keeps its DPF clean? Are there any problems with it? I see in the manual that it needs maintenance at 120,000 km. That seems a long time, and I suspect it is very expensive, perhaps a replacement.

Is anyone using biodiesel in one of these?
 
Location: Australia | Registered: July 17, 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Hi neutral,

I suspect because your car is 2004 it has a passive DPF, not the active ones used in 2007+.
There is no regen cycle used. The only thing that helps is to drive it full throttle often to blow out the soot. Or replace it .


1-tank Elsbett VW TDI , 220,000 WVO miles.
http://ctbiodzl.freeshell.org/votdi.html
and a '92 F-250 with only a FPHE
 
Location: Ct,USA | Registered: November 19, 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Thanks jburke,

I have been wondering about that for some time. I have never detected a regen activity while driving. I have however read that biodiesel produces less soot than diesel, so it would seem sensible to run at least some biodiesel. I am using 50%. Perhaps that, together with the passive clean, will keep the filter clean indefinitely.

Do you know which of the passive cleans this car would have?

One thing I have learned from the Honest John website is that these cars are prone to problems with fuel which are hard to diagnose, causing much expense as mechanics are not aware of the problem and how to avoid it. It seems it is difficult to insert the filter cartridge properly and fuel may leak around it, allowing blockage of the very fine mesh filter in the high pressure pump.

The solution recommended by Screwloose is to never change the filter cartridge, always change the whole filter, cartridge and body. My solution is to fit an extra filter in front of the Peugeot filter so that the Peugeot filter never needs to be changed. What I would like to know is whether the car will give a warning signal of low pressure if the filter becomes restricted. If it does, you could use that to tell you when to change the filter instead of using a time or mileage interval.
 
Location: Australia | Registered: July 17, 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post



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B100 does work in 2009 Jetta TDI, but B50 would be better without doing odd things to the car management system.
You will have plenty of warnings of a fuel filter that is becoming blocked, a warning light, car jerking and getting progressively worse, and a steady decline in power, so really you need to carry a spare fuel filter and the tools to change it, not a big deal at all.
Change both the fuel and oil filters at regular intervals, and every 100,000 miles or so, if you run high % of biodiesel, have the sump dropped and steam cleaned as the oil tends to thicken up over time. And if the low oil pressure light comes on stop 'IMMEDIATELY', otherwise you will be in for an expensive engine overhaul. Jim.
 
Location: Cape Town | Registered: May 17, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I don't follow this Jim,

If you look above you will see that the early 307s, like mine, 2004, don't have active regeneration of the DPF so cannot suffer from dilution of the sump oil through fuel bypassing the pistons. The only concern is to keep dirt out of the fuel as this causes terrible problems. They are terrible because mechanics don't know how to diagnose them, leading to heavy expenses. That is why Screwloose advises never changing the Peugeot filter cartridge, always change the whole filter, body and cartridge together.

I was hoping that the ECU would throw up a warning if the fuel pressure fell and thus wouldn't have to wait for the motor to play up. Is that not so?
 
Location: Australia | Registered: July 17, 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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You are correct, the ECU will put up a warning, but I seem to remember with my Audi that the jerking started before the warning light came on. The jerking was very mild to start with, and over a period of a couple of weeks it got progressively worse, so plenty of warning. My filter was a complete cartridge with warning sensor all in one, so you were obliged to change the whole unit and not only the cartridge. I will say again that the the Jetta will run on B100, but you might have problems with the DPF regen. Cut it open, remove the innards, weld closed again. Easy. At the same time de-cat the exhaust. It burns so clean using B100, imo, (added because the troll might jump up and chew me) I don't think you will have problems with any tests . Jim.
 
Location: Cape Town | Registered: May 17, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Hi JimKohler,

quote:
Originally posted by JimKohler:
It burns so clean using B100, imo, (added because the troll might jump up and chew me) I don't think you will have problems with any tests . Jim.
I do not think you need to worry, I am sure JG would agree with you Wink






 
Location: ลึก ประเทศอินเดีย | Registered: March 03, 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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While we are on the subject of clean fuel, does anyone know the specifications for the filters on various common rail vehicles? I have come across one unspecific post:

http://www.baileysdiesel.com/o...ail-diesel-problems/

This suggests a range from 2 to 5 microns. Does anyone have more specific info?
 
Location: Australia | Registered: July 17, 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Hi Neutral,

Does your car use Eloys fluid?






 
Location: ลึก ประเทศอินเดีย | Registered: March 03, 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post



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Hi Tilly,

I just don't know! Apparently these early 307s did not have active regeneration so you would think they would have had something else. There is no mention of topping up a container of anything in the Service Record book.
 
Location: Australia | Registered: July 17, 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Hi Neutral,
The DPF question is a real problem here in Australia.
Until this year most diesels in Australia did not require a DPF.
Some earlier diesels had them some did not/

Some had DPF's early on and then later models had them removed. Mitsibushi Pajero did this.

I have a friend who bought a small Peugeot new about 3 years ago and it did not have a DPF fitted.

Are you sure your car has a DPF?
It there a light on the dash that indicates there is a DPF?






 
Location: ลึก ประเทศอินเดีย | Registered: March 03, 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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