It's not that dire. :-)
Other manuf.'s that use an injector dedicated to regen, and placed in the exhaust are reporting no problems with bd. VW may jsut have to use a more expensive system. AFAIK Germany is mandated to go to B11 in the near future. A B5 limit would mean a lot of unsellable VW's.
1-tank Elsbett VW TDI , 220,000 WVO miles.
and a '92 F-250 with only a FPHE
I guess my big question is, would buying my wife a diesel Jetta, Jeep Liberty or something of the sort, be worth buying? I make my own ASTM quality biodiesel, and sell to farmers to avoid the red tape with taxes. But I do use B100 in my truck and I want to get my wife something that can also use B100 without the problems. Are we just the few that had problems or is everyone that is using biodiesel in brand new cars having problems?
Yes, your vehicle should operate properly if the B100 being burned is produced correctly. The dealer will always blame biodiesel because his BOSS (manufacter) only approves B20.
"Biodiesel burns at a lower temperature than petrodiesel, so the exhaust temperatures don't get high enough to allow the particulate filter to burn off the accumulated soot"
That is incorrect.
That sounds pretty certain. Do you have actual evidence? If so, how many (trouble free) miles over how long a time frame in how many vehicles?
I hope you are correct. I have not yet seen data which supports those ideas.
03 Dodge 2500 B100 homebrew
79 Rabbit B100 homebrew
I'm surprised by VW's position, but expect it is mostly CYA for loose screws behind the wheel.
I took the plunge and bought a 2009 Jetta TDI I plan to run on B99. My understanding is that the lower volatility of B99 over D2 causes and accumulation of B99 dilution in the crankcase.
Looking at the BS with B99 reblending and the necessity of registering to buy B99/100, I suspect there is a lot of political nonsense around these issues.
The problem of oil dilution from regen post injection seems small. At a 300 mile regen interval, that is 10 regens in a 3000 mile oil change interval. With a gallon of oil in the crankcase, how high can the dilution possibly get?
The data here,
while superficially alarming, is so poorly scaled as to be fairly useless without the accompanying text and more complete graphics. Poor Ed Tufte would be disgusted by this.
Surely the rings cannot possibly be that porous, altho at the low pressure of the exhaust stroke, especially with an unbroken-in engine, it could be a significant portion of the injection volume. I will monitor this as much as I can with Vag Com and see what I get.
I think I may wait until after my first 3K mile oil change before switching to allow a more complete break-in. The rings after all are really the only engine component actually needing a break-in
In my experience running both B99 and D2 in a number of engines, including stationary gensets, I have observed that the particulate mass for B99 is significantly below D2. I have also seen serious filter clogging by wax crystals with even very good home brew. Gel points seem to vary widely. I suspect this may be the cause of the CEL reported by Neurot.
I'm wondering if a chip tuner could reduce the scheduled regen frequency to suit the lower particulate with B99? There is a pressure differential sender shown in the illustrations, so I presume there is a secondary threshold to trigger regen cycles even without the mileage scheduled regens.
I anticipate that here in warm So Cal, with a 3K mile oil change interval and ASTM virgin soy B99, I will have little trouble.
I will report all the data I can. I suspect I can catch the Regen on my Vag Com by injection volume. I will try and capture and graph for a few hundred miles and see if I can find a regen event and some hard numbers on potential oil dilution rates.
I would think that VW would have made the cars B99 compatible if possible, but again, they need to build cars capable of being reliably operated by idiots. If I were testing these engines for fuel recommendations relating to warranty issues, I would use a worst case standard . As a certified non-idiot, I have some faith I can manage this system reliably.
Time will tell. Stay tuned.
From my TDIclub.com post:
I went to San Francisco last weekend for the 2009 Sustainable Biodiesel Summit.
I gave a presentation on my experiences with B100 in my 2009 Jetta TDI (which were also summarized in biodieselSMARTER magazine at http://www.biodieselsmarter.co..._09_tdi_and_its.php).
We also invited Gary Parsons from Chevron to present about the Diesel Particulate Filter technology, which seems to be the problem in 2007.5 and later diesel vehicles. He gave a very deep technical presentation which was very eye opening and very sobering.
The problem with the DPF system is not the DPF itself, but the technology used to implement the regen cycle to clean out the crud. Ironically, the crud builds up only half as fast with B100, but that doesn't solve our problem.
The system employed by Volkswagen, and almost every other OEM today, is called "Late Post-Injection". During the exhaust stroke, some fuel is squirted into the cylinder, which is then vaporized and sent down the exhaust stream. The theory is that it will combust, burning off the crud in the DPF.
The problem is, some of the fuel (ANY fuel) gets down into the crankcase and mixes with the oil. When using regular diesel, this not a big problem because it has a relatively low evaporative point. That means it evaporates out and exits through the positive crankcase ventilation system. It is a known issue that this happens even with diesel, but is not considered a major issue as long as normal oil change intervals are observed.
Furthermore, Gary described in great detail the level of interaction between fuel system, lubrication system, and emissions system that modern vehicles have. He showed charts of permissible emissions and how that "ever-shrinking box" of allowed emissions has increased the level of coordination between the various companies. For example, engine oil manufacturers designing oil for 2007+ vehicles must make their oil withstand the various types of acid that build up in engine oil now that all the sulfur is gone (sulfuric acid used to be the big problem with regular and LSD).
Here comes the problem: with biodiesel having a much higher evaporative point, the amount that gets in the engine oil STAYS there. This has a side effect of making the blend of biodiesel in the engine oil much higher over time - they showed a test where someone fueling with B5 was shown to have B40 in the engine oil. And because biodiesel is even more "polar" than some of the lubricating agents in engine oil, it displaces them, increasing wear over time as the oil breaks down. There has been no long term studies done on this, but if you're expecting the engine to last 500k miles and it only last 300k, that's still a problem.
So, the conclusion: VW has built a system that is simply not compatible with high-blend biodiesel. The engine has no trouble with it, but the emissions system is highly dependent on having the properties of D2 as the DPF regen catalyst.
Where does this leave us? As a group of people wanting to use the highest possible blend of biodiesel - very disappointed. Further testing of real world oil samples may find an optimal blend level, or an acceptable oil change interval. Working around this issue is possible with the effort of many over a long period of time. SOLVING this problem is possible with the OEMs redesigning their systems to not use this technology (which is really no technology at all, but a cheap way out of redesigning the system by just reprogramming the injector system). Caterpillar is already using a different system, which has been shown to work great with biodiesel. The problem is it's prohibitively expensive ($7000 per big truck). It's possible that the engineers at VW can work on a solution that is affordable for smaller passenger vehicles.
Although I'm extremely disappointed in the results, I'm glad to report a lot of lessons learned and other positive outcomes:
I discovered that TDIClub is NOT the place to discuss alternative fuels. I'll be discussing things like this on the Infopop forum in the future, and perhaps posting a link here to there if it's warranted. That may reduce the troll-to-signal ratio.
I learned that the new 2009 engine works just fine with B100, just like all the other VW's out there. Once they re-engineer the emissions system, VW will be back on my radar.
Kumar Plocher, of Yokayo Biofuels, started a letter-writing campaign to the major OEM's urging them to work on an emissions system that is fuel-neutral, or as close as possible.
Shared the stage with a major oil company to discuss the issue in front of my peers and hundreds of interested parties. By raising this issue to a national level, I was able to get people thinking about something that hardly anyone knew about just a few months ago.
Learned a LOT about modern emissions systems and what may be coming down the road in years to come.
Became even more sure that the B100 market will eventually begin to shrink. Companies like mine will have to adapt to this new reality and work to get biodiesel mandates and to integrate low blends into the mainstream. High blends will always be there for the educated and dedicated crowd, but unlikely in the numbers that so many of us had hoped for. I thought we'd have an Accord diesel, Toyota Tundra diesel, Nissan Titan diesel, and a bunch of 1/2 ton diesel pickups in 2009. With none of those materializing yet, we can only hope that their development cycles will be long enough to allow for this emission-system incompatibility issue to be acknowledged and corrected by the OEM's.
For anyone who would like to see the outstanding presentation by Gary Parsons of Chevron, it is posted here at http://www.dieselgreenfuels.com/chevron_dpf.pdf.
The Jetta used in my testing was powered by B100 for about 2500 miles, then it got cold so I dropped down to B50. Once I learned that it would not work with B100 for the long-term, I dropped to B5. Now I'm selling the Jetta (see my ad in the classified section) for $23,000. It is still under full manufacturer's warranty.
Thanks to all that contributed in a positive manner. I'd be happy to answer any additional questions, but please spare us negative comments. I hope that my testing has contributed something to TDIClub, and although I don't see myself using this site much more in the future, perhaps there will be a changing of the guard at some point, less trolling in the alt fuels forums, and more advocacy of non-petroleum fuels.
Awesome post, Jason! Thanks a bunch for the update!! Indeed, you learned a lot, and so did we, thanks to you! May you be blessed for it all.
Quick question: would a tankful of B100 "here and there" hurt my 2009 Jetta TDI, meaning, would an oil change after a few tankfuls 'restore" and "flush" out the Bio outta the oil crankcase, thus nullifying a short-term slight, perhaps negligible effect?
And, would those occasional tankfuls, or a few gallons into my D2 tank, result for sure in a CEL or even an actual DPF problem?
Or, would, as I hope, a few gallons here and there would not bother anything as long as I go back to D2? I have a friend who brews it and I can see putting it a few gallons added to the D2 I been running since I bought her, or an even more rare b100 tankful, that i would then have D2 tankfuls after?
Thanks in advance..
the dilution is additive, and never goes away, due to the high evaporative point of biodiesel. so you would probably want to change your oil sooner, or at least watch the level to make sure it doesn't creep up too far over full.
going back and forth between diesel and biodiesel has problems due to seals inside injector pumps shrinking and swelling - particularly bad when going from B0 to B100 again and again.
I don't believe that an occasional tank or high blend would cause CEL or real problem. you can also clear the code yourself and move on.
Thanks so much Jason.
Walking the talk is the only way to go (IMNSHO), and then calling it as you see it. This is the spirit the forum was weaned on.
VW has continually averred (and boasted?) that their latest design effort was not suitable for use with 99.9% environmentally responsible fuel(if that's not an oxymoron.) I congratulate their engineers (and accountants) for FINALLY accomplishing their design goal.
That being said, demonstrated performance is where it's at, or not.
Thanks for providing a well conceived and documented data point.
Bob in Moncure
Got Renewable Fuel?
Since wax is a petroleum product, where do you think those wax crystals in biodiesel came from?[/QUOTE]
Like earwax and beeswax? What it is some low fraction component of a particular ester with a very high cloud (gel) point.
Nuerot: I completely understand the issue with oil dilution here, but remember that warranties and mfg. recommendations are idiot-proof-cover-your-ass-against-any-and-all-a**holes-in-a-litigious-society contracts, in the context of a demand for reduced maintenance and a 10K oil change interval.
I will be stunned if I have any problems with a 3K oil change regimen. I know also that some of you, with commercial interests, face the same liabilities. For someone like me, and many other owners on these lists, all we risk is reduced longevity of our vehicles. Given the data available here, I think for a saavy and conscientious owner, even those risks may be minimal.
My guess is you'd do better worrying about the condition of your cooling hoses and fan belts more than oil dilution. In my experience the vast majority of cars do not die slow natural deaths at 500K miles from worn rings and bearings. They die young from serious engine damage and shortened life spans from overheating caused by failure of hoses, belts, tensioners, thermostats and water pumps.
Finally, the big flaw in this argument is that i have heard that B100 is covered in europe where the predominant base oil is from rape seed and not soy. Could there really be that large a difference between the volatility of these two fuels?
There is no doubt there is an active campaign against biofuels that dates back to the Reagan administration. I may be paranoid, but I can't help thinking some of this may be affected by this propaganda and the billions of petro dollars that underlie it.
Fatty Acid - in Europe, they don't have the DPF, so they don't have "late post injection combustion" and therefore do not have the oil dilution issue.
I do agree with you that many of the issues are not really so bad if you are "one of us" - so I wouldn't avoid B100 completely if I were keeping the car; I'd just be aware of the issue and plan to do some extra work to avoid problems.
The point being, wax is not a petroleum product. It is not a specific chemical but a type of heat-sensitive oily material.
I was amazed at how widely different batches of B100 varied in their gel point, and especially the way some have fractions that gel much higher than others and form waxy precipitates.
I was involved in managing an off-grid machine shop in Berkeley where we ran our fork lift, generators and other equipment on B100(99) we would either create on-site or get from various sources. Some fuel would all become very viscous and grainy at near freezing (rare there), and some would develop these wax precipitates at as high as 45 deg F. Others were consistently thin even down below 40.
Err yes we do! We are in a similar boat to you guys! Peugeot and Citroen are now the only car manufacturers offering higher blend compatibility. Max B30 (extra servicing required) The vehicles all have DPF but use a different regen system to VW etc.
I have yet to find out if the post injection is in the exhaust pipe.
Home of Good Biodiesel http://www.cambridgebiodiesel.org
2000 Vauxhall (GM) 1.7 NA IDI Combo, Bosch VE, coolant heated fuel heater. In-tank strainer drilled out and inline filter fitted. Using FAME and veg oil blends.
Neurot: This is my first post here- I too just purchased a 2009 TDI with the hope of powering it with Bio so this thread is of great interest to me. A few questions.
1. Did you ever find out what exactly caused the CEL to light up?
2. What did the Bio allegedly do to cause this to light?
3. Did you notice any performance problems with the car when this occurred?
I just filled my tank a week ago for the first time at about 200 miles on the car with 7 gal of B99. Almost immediately the engine felt like it was running smoother and a quieter (not to mention the B99 has a nice butter smell to it) so I am hoping to continue running Bio.
Is the regen cycle fixed at 300 miles or is there something else that triggers it? I cant find any documentation that says it regens every 300 miles, where did you find this out? If true then the amount of bio in the crankcase at 3000mi would seem to be negligible, and I might pursue a similar oil change regimen.
never found out exactly what caused the CEL light to come on (besides "exhaust gas temperature out of range")
the bio has a higher flash point and was said to not combust properly. however, i've heard many people say that exhaust temps are so high that it shouldn't be a problem. it could have just been a fluke.
i noticed no performance differences when running bio, but when the CEL comes on, it goes into limp mode until cleared.
the regen cycle has been the subject of a lot of discussion on tdiclub and i would direct you there for more info.
i personally think it happens a LOT more than a fixed cycle, otherwise, it wouldn't be such a problem with oil dilution.
Jason, Have you been running 100% petrol diesel since your 1st experience with the CEL, and has it ever come back on with the same fault? Steve
I sold the car as soon as i could. i put about 3500 miles on petro diesel after the CEL and it never came back. the oil level did get 'overfull' even when on diesel.
If the oil level was getting overfull even with dinodiesel this would seem to indicate to me that regular diesel doesn't evaporate out of the oil pan quite as quickly as Chevron and VW's presentations would lead you to believe. (Is it just me who distrusts a presentation by a major oil company that shows the advantages of burning petrodiesel to the disadvantages of burning biodiesel?) In any case I am going to be keeping a close eye on my oil level from here on and changing it more often that the owners manual suggests.
Thats interesting. I've also read that reported for a couple other non VW TDI DPF equipped cars.
One was really severe.
FWIR overfilling will lead to problems with the catalytic converter.
1-tank Elsbett VW TDI , 220,000 WVO miles.
and a '92 F-250 with only a FPHE
So to recap, the only issue with running biodiesel in my '09 TDI is it gets into the crankcase, same as petrodiesel does, except BD doesn't magically evaporate from engine oil like petrodiesel allegedly does. Except it appears petrodiesel doesn't evaporate that easily either. I can't say I am fully convinced. If the 'exhaust gas temperature out of range' was caused by the BD, wouldn't the sensor have picked it up within a few minutes of running your first full tank of BD? Why would the exhaust gas temperature only change after running for 2000 miles on the stuff? I'm thinking maybe the sensor went out of whack and the dealer mechanic blamed it on your bumper sticker. If my engine oil is going to be contaminated with fuel either way, wouldn't it be better to be contaminated with biodiesel versus petrodiesel?
|Powered by Social Strata||Page 1 2 3 4|