Ok, so I'll give re-torquing a try. Now, is this something I can confidently do on my own or do I need to seek out the services of a mechanic. My problem with a lot of the local mechanics is that they don't know this engine, which I understand, but instead of telling me that up front, they tell me this, that, or the other thing needs to happen and when it does and nothing changes they say, "Oh, well, you know, we really don't know these engines. So sorry." So, if I can avoid handing over the Jeep for two months to a mechanic that probably knows less than me about these particular engines at this point, that would be great. I'm pretty handy of have done a bunch of the minor repairs on the Jeep myself, so I feel like this is something I should be able to handle; but I would hate to blow up my engine because I made a minor mistake that a trained mechanic would have never made.
What are the torque specs and the tightening sequence, by the way? My first mechanic, who is no longer around, ran away with my shop manual.
95-105N•m ( 70-77 ft•lbs)
start at center bolts and work out from opposites
-- no torque pattern/sequence listed in either manual I have
have you adjusted valves ?
Rocker arm clearance:
intake valve ( cold ) o.20mm o.008 in
exhaust valve( cold ) o.25mm o.0010 in
best of luck :
I was actually able to find it in one of my other shop manuals (I used to have a shop manual just for the engine...and it was great!!...until the mechanic stole it). I'll scan the pages and post them if you want. It has the torque pattern.
howdy mate :
Please do so - please to mention what manual you have
I have Renault MOT. J .. ( D ) 92 page engine manual and 1985 Jeep Factory Service manual XJ Cherokee with all engines available for this year - 2.1L TD section is basically the same as the Renault MOT.J. manual
Oh boy! So, I didn't get very far with the re-torque. Apparently, some of the retaining bolts were corroded or something and when attempting to remove the cylinder head cover a couple of turns on the first bolt and SNAP...the bolt just broke off. I don't even know where to go from here, as I now have a portion of a bolt stuck somewhere in the head or block.
Any thoughts? How far back in the process do I have to go at this point? A complete rebuild from scratch? Once again, I am thinking I should just throw in the towel...
so sorry to hear this - dont mean to rain on you - this sounds classic re- using head bolts - when you should seldom if ever re-use head bolts
at this point - if I understand correctly - what I would do is get a new set of head bolts and a new head gasket - crack the head - inspect the work - get that bolt out - and install head
you may want to consider another mechanic for this re head job - only because the tolerances are to be very specific - and if the head bolts HAVE been reused - who can say what else may have been - best to find out now as much as you can with the current sitch - then you can decide if you want to continue to invest or pass it on to someone else
hate to see you come this far and not have the fruits of your ambition. Personally I think the engine and the complete package are worth the hassles / and education
if you can get the engine settled - and you stay on top of the maintenance as surely you would after all this - no reason you should not be able to enjoy this vehicle for 15 + years - there has to be someone is So Cali who knows more about these engines - When I lived in Venice and Santa Monica - I knew a few places that specialized in Citroen / Renaults - Euro Specs - So Cali really is the best for these mid 80's gems
good luck and let us know how you fare
In the meantime, should I be terrified to even start up the vehicle, even just to move it in and out of the garage when I need to get to stuff that it's blocking?
And you're right about the mechanic. I think he re-used a lot of old parts. Unfortunately, he is long gone and I have no way to contact him, so I would need to find someone else. I had trouble finding anyone willing to take on this engine in the first place. The closest I got was a Pugeot guy, and he flaked out on me. So, my hopes are not high...
And am I correct in assuming we're talking at least $1000 if not closer to $2000 for a mechanic to do the work we're talking about here when all is said and done?
to remove head - remove broken bolt - new head gasket & install head ( hopefully he will be savvy - check head / if good - adjust valves after re- install ) I would say less than the former - or around that - new gaskets can be had outta UK for 45-70 $ with carriage - eBay -- head bolts not sure probably cheaper outta UK as well - but carriage will be killer I think
last I checked with the Winnebago guy in Iowa ( is its locale? ) - he was outrageous on his prices
Have you visited NAXJA.org to ask tech questions and maybe find a mechanic in So Cali ?
an engine start might not be terrible - I would say no to driving ( road )
Do you have a specific UK source? Thanks.
sent an email requesting another gasket - will report when i am reply'd
So, here's a bit of good news. I took off the cylinder head cover today, and the retaining bolts that had broken off were protruding enough out of the head that I was able to extract them. I noticed some oil pooling in the top portion of the head, covering the 8 lower head bolts (the ones that are below the cover and rocker arm) and the rocker arm, etc. Is this normal?
Next question: While I am figuring out the finances of getting a complete rebuild done, do you think I should re-torque the head myself, get a new cover gasket, and put it all back together and see how she fairs? How difficult is it to adjust the valves on the rocker arm, and do I need to remove the rocker arm to re-torque the head? (Man, I wish I had that shop manual the mechanic ran away with)
Well, at least I was able to get those bolts out. :^>
howdy Ventureforth :
First - to correct you a bit - Valve cover is what you removed - if valve cover gasket is in good shape - reuse is normal - unless dry - cracking - in generaly poor condition
pooling oil is normal inside belly of head - engine can be run without valve cover - oil will not spray everywhere - should burble with low pressure splattering - not recommended - but can be done
great you can get head bolt out - if it were me - I would procure new head bolts and replace them one by one - just to be safe - inspect each bolt removed - if crap on any ends - then your Prior mechanic may have gotten crap inside the bolt holes - this can impede proper head bolt seating /torquing - re- torque new bolts to specs - at 4th sequence - start engine and let warm up for a moment before last torque
a special tool is easiest for valve adjust - but I think a regular head screw drive and wrench will work
I have an extra 1985 M.R.244 Jeep Cherokee /Wagoneer factory service manual I will offer to sell you if you like - have all the same info from the MOT. J .. ( D- diesel ) Renault manual as well as everything else ( transmissions, axles, body , interior- pertaining to an XJ cherokee/ wagoneer
pages are immaculate 10 /10 cover ( front ) 8.75/10 - one crease - no rips , 3 very minor stains - sat on shelf never used
contact me if you are interested firstname.lastname@example.org
should not have to remove any rockers to adjust valves -
Ok, let's see, I think I have to clarify some things.
You're right, valve cover is what I would call it, too. The shop manual I have called it a cylinder head cover.
The bolts that broke were the bolts for the valve cover, not the head bolts. The valve cover gasket looks ok...but just ok. It's not dry or cracking, just a little bent out of shape. Would you still recommend using it? I'm having a tough time finding a valve cover gasket online, but I do have an inquiry into winnebegoparts.
Thanks, as always, for all of your help.
howdy venture :
Good good - Ok - valve cover bolts - not a worry - those can be had at any decent hardware store - just match the tread - should be European metric - not sure in reg thread or tight thread - may not be the exact length of original but close enough
for this application - lets just refer to this cover as the valve cover - By the way - what manual do you have that gives you info on this engine ?
your valve cover gasket - is this cork or rubber ? you mechanic should have ordered new gaskets - top and bottom engine - with the rebuild - do you know where he got the parts - asking so perhaps you can contact the company yourself and see if they can tell you what was procured - if cork - will get a bit outta shape easy - unless abused or very old - should still work - you may want to dress this gasket with Hylomar or something like this - not gasket sealer - gasket dressing ( re- sealable )
again - look to the site I have spoke of previous for Euro parts supplies for these engine - Renault was still producing the J8S up until 99 I believe so updated parts ( rubber valve cover gasket ) can be had cheaply - just a bit more of a wait on for carriage
forget looking to canada for anything - will be overpriced if you can find and the shipping is stupid for being so close /expensive - takes less time from UK than from Canada
happy to be of help
After replacing the head bolts (by the way, they are only hand tightened as I was reluctant to torque them since every time I do they seem to break) I took her for a short test drive just to see what sort of shape we are in. I heard a noise coming from the engine, a sort "sch-sch-sch-sch-sch-sch-sch-sch" noise like that of a steam train chugging along. I popped the hood with the engine still running to find white smoke (or maybe steam) coming out of the no. 2 injector in a steady pulse. Any thoughts?
Also, what is the generic equivalent to Mot. 852 (cylinder head bolt remover). In other words, what size wrench head do I use to tighten the bolts in the the belly of the cylinder head, because none of mine seem to fit down there (in that, there is so little room between the bolt head and the cylinder head that my wrench head will not fit around the bolt head)?
Do you mean Valve Cover bolt ?
Were injectors rebuilt ?- replaced with new? - reused ?
there are washers to seat the injectors - this can be an issue
valves may be way out of alignment or injector pump timing may need adjusting - if the latter - best done by a qualified mechanic - I P timing adjustment can only be done on vehicle -
valve cover ( also known as rocker cover ) bolts are 5 N•m ( 44 inch lbs) - basically 1/4 drive wrench and one firm turn after seated - dont crank it too much
No, this time I actually mean the cylinder head bolts, the eight that are down in the belly of the head.
If the valves are just out of alignment, what sort of work is involved to remedy that? The injector pump was rebuilt, but I don't think the injectors themselves were. Seeing as it is only one of the injectors that is having trouble, is it more likely an alignment issue?
you really have me confused now
are head bolts hand tight ? did you loosen these to remove head - without proper torquing of head bolts - you will have pressure issues ( escaping ) within head /cylinder chamber
yes IP ( injector Pump _ was rebuilt by qualified shoppe
have to find the source of sound - again - since I am not there to see / hear for myself - hard to say - could be a bad spray pattern in the injector itself - could be a poorly seated hard injector line - from IP to injector - injector might not be torqued properly
hard to say about your mechanics capabilities - was he thorough or did shoddy work
Find the source of the sound - a mechanics stethoscope may be of use here - it might also be a pre combustion chamber loose - do you know if you had a head job done - or was head just inspected - many times pre cups ( combustion chambers ) are reused - not such an issue - but if they are loose in the head - this can be an issue - especially with this engine - as they are only allowed a very small protrusion tolerance - and this can screw with your compression - have you done a compression test - or was a compression test performed after the rebuild
Do you know how to do a compression test ?
The head bolts are torqued. I never loosened them, nor did I try to remove the head. I was going to attempt to re-torque them based on suggestions from the forum, but never got that far as I had been dealing with the broken bolts on the valve cover. When I got the valve cover off, I thought I would check the torque on the head bolts, but I can't reach the eight that are down in the belly of the head, so I left them alone for now. The nine head bolts that are exposed even when the valve cover is on seemed to be up to torque, so I imagine the eight below are ok, too. Can't be sure at this point.
The mechanic told me that he had a head job done, but at this point I don't know what to believe. I did have a compression test done, and it came back fine. This is a recent phenomenon, too. There was never a problem with the injectors before yesterday, only the issue with the coolant loss and white smoke out of the exhaust.
Sorry for all of the confusion.
no worries - when diagnosing - words are very important - as are explanations
ok - lets assume your prior mechanic did a decent job as he had the manual - still is good to check on things
fuel systems are usually the buggy-ist of the diesel- no nocking your abilities - but have you thought of having truck towed to the local diesel service - perhaps where the IP was rebuilt - they should be able to figure out any injection system - renault aluminum head should be of no matter
you say a compression test came back fine - No's are important - you should have at least 600 lbs per cylinder from a fresh rebuild - if not close to that or more - if you no's are very different per cylinder - that tells you alot
I did mention a leak down test - this is considered more important - and what I would do before I considered cracking the engine again
by the way - how does the oil look from the sump ( oil Pan ) ? you do know about normal break in period ?
You never mentioned if you know where the parts came from - as I understand - unless you cross the pond - parts for these really can only be had from one guy - so may be easy to check what was new and what was old -
not that assuming is the best course for these troubles - in my experience , the problems after a fresh rebuild usually run toward the simple than to the complex - unless the mechanic was a real schmo and pocketed much that would go toward new parts
have you talked with the Winnebago guy in Iowa about what you are experiencing - he may know exactly what is what if he deals with these engine the most
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