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Centrifuge Feed/Pump Question
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I think I want to run my fuel through a centrifuge to remove the Magnesol that I use to dry wash. However, I think the carbonator pumps will crush the Magnesol into smaller particles with each pass, making some to small to get out. If partiicles of magnesium silicate smaller than 1 micron won't hurt my engine or injectors this is fine.

Otherwise, would it be possible to run a Dieselcraft centrifuge by pressuring a propane tank to 90 PSI with my compressor and plumbing that tank to the centrifuge instead using a pump? If an OC50 uses 4.4 gpm, a small compressor running less than 1 cfm should be more than enough supply since 1 cubic foot = 7.48 gallons.

Thanks in advance for your thoughts and experience.
 
Registered: February 26, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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If you mean filling the tank with hot oil and putting air pressure to it, yes that would work but it would be a pain to deal with. You would have to stop, refill the tank, and do the same thing again and again and again depending how many passes you want to make.
 
Location: SF Bay Area | Registered: September 02, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Actually, I meant using it to spin the Magnesol out of the finished biodiesel, not the oil. I would have to put it back in the tank for two passes, but it should eliminate the carbonator pump grinding up the Magnesol (plus I would save having to buy a carbonator pump).
 
Registered: February 26, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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It should work but the 'fuge spins because of fluid pressure and since I have never done it I don't know if it would work. Couldn't you just run the bd thru a bag filter? Also I thing Fabricator tried 'fuging bd and discovered it does not work well if there is methanol in it.
 
Location: SF Bay Area | Registered: September 02, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I am de-mething before I add the Magnesol and the people at Fryer to Fuel (as well as others) say that the Dieselcraft centrifuge will take the Magnesol out in two passes. I like the end results of Magnesol, but I want to make sure it is out of the fuel.

Currently, I am running it through bag filters (1 micron and 5 micron), but i am still getting enough that 100 gallons of fuel clogs a large 2 micron cannister filter.

On top of that, I have been having my engine oil analyzed to make sure the biodiesel/magnesol is working. But my first oil analysis with Magnesol showed very high bearing wear. This could be an oil filter problem in that a particle/particles got in a bearing/bearings and had nothing to do with the Magnesol, or perhaps I have magnesium silicate getting in my oil (even after filtering with a 1 micron absolute filter).

At any rate, I have to find a solution, and see what my next oil analysis reads.

Thanks
 
Registered: February 26, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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You could just quit using Magnesol. That high bearing wear would have me very worried. I know someone that quit using it but I don't know if he knew about it causing bearing wear but he did have problems filtering.
 
Location: SF Bay Area | Registered: September 02, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post



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The only 2 variables were that I used a K&N oil filter instead of my normal Napa Gold, and the use of Magnesol. I am going to try and call Blackstone tomorrow. But I am thinking of getting out of Magnesol for sure.

My bearing wear went from 4ppm to 19 ppm. Frightening for sure. I may go to an ion exchange tower.
 
Registered: February 26, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Knotwild,

Take a look at the Ecopure / Cellulose threads before jumping to Resins, you might save a lot of $$$. Big Grin
 
Location: Derbyshire UK | Registered: November 28, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Hi Stumpy: I have been following both threads, but lately it is just to have some fun picking at newguy.

But on a serious note. The entire washing step in making biodiesel has frustrated me. It does not seem like there is a good economical answer.

I thought about a centrifuge and Magnesol, but some said the centrifuge would work and some say not.

I tried Amberlite in a crude column that came with my processor, but reading about the ion exchange media (instead of the instructions with the processor, which were erroneous), I realized that it simply takes too much expensive media to get enough volume so that I am not tied up for hours running it.

I don't want to water wash because I don't want to spend hours and hours drying the fuel.

Eco2Pure looks good, but I don't like the idea of having to prime it or wash it with methanol that costs as much as it does.

Magnesol presents filtering problems but makes fantastic looking fuel in short order.

So after processing all this info and emailing others who use Magnesol, I have decided to continue with the Magnesol. I bought a bag filter housing from Fryer to Fuel to help with filtering. I am putting the reacted fuel in a tank, de-mething it and letting the soap and residual glycerin settle for a minimum of 4 hours. Then decant, gravity filter through a 5/1/1 micron sock filter setup (one inside the other), add Magnesol @ 2g/l mix with stirring for 30 minutes, and settle (overnight if possible). The fuel decanted from the Magnesol is then circulated through the 5/1/1 bag filters and through the filter housing with a 1 micron nominal filter for 2-3 passes using vacum and pressure. Once this is complete I switch the filter bag in the housing to a 1 micron absolute bag and pressure it to my truck through the filter housing and a Fryerpower 1 micron absolute cannister.

I still have to plumb my filter housing as it was just delivered yesterday, but this system is fast after de-mething and everyone I talk to says that 1 micron particles should not cause harm to an engine. Caterpillar currently runs a 2 micron fuel filter as the industry standard and I recently found some drop in 2 micron fuel filters that will replace my normal fuel filter.

Do you think this sounds OK? I do appreciate your time and thoughts.

Thanks
 
Registered: February 26, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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knot,
you say that you are de-mething. if you are going to use a centrifuge then why even bother using magnesol at all. just de-meth and run it through the centrifuge to remove the soap.


Shawn

2006 F-250 6.0l PSD Crew W/ FS BED Runnin' on Homemade B-100 (NOT!!!) If you have a 6.0 DO NOT RUN B/D unless you have a LOT of money for injectors and fuel pumps and fuel injection control modules and...

This message will self destruct
 
Location: sunny Palm Bch.County, Fl. Home of the "Hanging Chad" | Registered: July 16, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Shawn:
Keep in mind that I am very new at all of this, so there is much I don't know in comparison to others. Like Will Rogers once said "All I know is what I read in the papers".

I think for now, I have parked the centrifuge idea due to expense.

It is my understanding that all biodiesel has to be de-methed and I have been following others who use Graham Laming's use of settling that avoids washing of any kind.

It is my understanding that Magnesol, Amberlite, Purolite, etc. will remove residual soap, residual glycerin, residual methanol, and other impurities. And they further say that it augments biodiesel stability.

To buy a filter housing cost me $244.00 plus freight etc. Nominal filters are about $7.00 each and may be re-useable (there are debates on that also). Absolute filters are higher at $17.99 in price, but should last a long time if used after efficient pre-filtering. The small Dieselcraft centrifuge is 624.99.

I also found through experimenting last week that I was able to settle about 1 gallon of soap after about 4 hours. Perhaps I should heat my oil longer and to a higher temp to reduce soap, but time is always an issue. The bottom line is that after settling the soap, the Magnesol produced some fuel that looked good enough to drink in about 30 minutes. After the magnesol settled, I could see through over 18" of biodiesel to the bottom of the tank.

What I am trying to say is that I really want my process to be time efficient so I can have a life in other areas. If I have efficiently dried my oil and reduced soap production and if I am in a hurry for fuel, I can de-meth, immediately mix Magnesol, and within an hour be driving on that fuel.

Some have said in other posts that a centrifuge will not take the soap out if methanol is present. Even if some residual methanol is present, wouldn't it allow the soap to pass through the centrifuge?

I love making biodiesel, but it is tough sorting through the information that is out there to make decisions.

If I don't completely understand the centrifuge and my thoughts are wrong, your experience would be a big help.

Thanks
 
Registered: February 26, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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it seems that there is always something new to grab our attention and tinker with. i completely understand. i'm getting ready to build my centrifuge and try the soap removal (after de-meth) with the centrifuge. i've read that with the centrifuge you actually get some vapor creation due to the turbulence so i'm thinking that if you remove enough meth with a condensor then the rest you could vaporize and remove with perhaps a vacuum hooked up to the lid of the centrifuge.


Shawn

2006 F-250 6.0l PSD Crew W/ FS BED Runnin' on Homemade B-100 (NOT!!!) If you have a 6.0 DO NOT RUN B/D unless you have a LOT of money for injectors and fuel pumps and fuel injection control modules and...

This message will self destruct
 
Location: sunny Palm Bch.County, Fl. Home of the "Hanging Chad" | Registered: July 16, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post



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I am not sure how much a vacum would affect the feed into the centrifuge or if it would impair biodiesel exiting the centrifuge. I have never actually seen one in action, so that may be worthless information. I do know that if I try to circulate during my reaction with a centrifugal pump, the vacum impairs the pump's efficiency and slows priming, even though the reaction tank is 3' above the pump.

A gentle vacum might work. But I have also noticed that de-methed biodiesel will create a vapor when I move it with compressed air and it blows the last bit of fuel out. So, I would think that the turbulence vapor might be biodiesel. From what I read, to really get methanol out, the temp has to be around 65C/150F,and even then it may take some aeration to get it all out.
 
Registered: February 26, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Knotwild,

I don`t recall being told anything about methanol pretreatment of Ecopure when I went to Filtertechnik in Nottingham a couple of months ago. I used to use Magnesol and have changed over completely, how did you get "drinkable Bio" in half an hour with Magnesol ? you must have been pushing the pretreatment/filtration/post filtration times to their minimum.

trtmntdude.
What type of Centrifuge do you plan to make ?
If you type my user name with the search for Centrifuge, I hope their is some info to help you.
BEWARE that if you haven`t properly demethed your Bio when you spin it you are making a VERY volatile mixture. Eek I`m sure you will know that as you spin your Bio you are atomizing it as it leaves the rotor. I use my Centrifuge now to clean my WVO then later after overnight settling I use it to remove any leftover production residues soap etc, The amount of crud for a 40lt batch was around 20g in suspended wastes, then finally use the Ecopure to finish off
 
Location: Derbyshire UK | Registered: November 28, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Hi Stumpy:
The guys in the cellulose, Eco2pure thread were saying that the Eco2pure people recommended that the column have methanol run through it initially. Maybe that is bad information and I should not have listened to it. I don't think anyone in that thread has been to Filtertechnik! I apologize for being wrong there.
On the Magnesol part; I settled out what soap was there and used 2g/l as that is what most of the information I have seen recommended (plus what the guy who sold it to me said). I took a sample off the top after circulating with a paint mixer for 30 minutes and it was beautiful fuel. I didn't mean 30 minutes from raw biodiesel to clean, but 30 minutes of circulation. If I did not care about my filters, I could have filtered it then too.

I still may switch to Eco2pure, but right now everyone is using Magnesol and I can get some good prices. Plus filtering is really fast with the new filter housing. I cycle it through nominal filters twice, then through and absolute 1 micron twice on the way to my vehicle.

So, my process is based on efficiency of time and cost.

What is your flow rate through your column?
 
Registered: February 26, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Knotwild,
No need to apologize, I have no ties to Filtertechnik at all except for being a customer, (just thought I`d get that in for others)
I used to use Magnesol from them as I said earlier, I was told similar to you that you mix for 30min, initial filter to build up Magnesol cake in the filter for 30min, then polish through 1mu absolute for 30min.
I think you would find vast savings in time and money (because you aren`t throwing away the purification media every time)if at some stage you switched over to Ecopure the only drawback is the change over costs involved.

My "rig" Big Grin has a flow rate because of it`s limited size of 1lt per min as suggested by Filtertechnik.
I think there are horses for courses in most things to be associated with Bio and we choose what is best for ourselves as we are the final judges of our product.
 
Location: Derbyshire UK | Registered: November 28, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Hi Stumpy. The flow rate is what moved me away from Amberlite and also my supplier said Amberlite and Purolite are really going up in price. He makes about 800 gallons a day and he, along with the rest of his clients, wanted something that would give us some speed in dry washing. Before going to Magnesol, I called Filtertechnik's representative here in the U.S., but the price for a column from them was cost prohibitive. Since then I have found one cheaper, but if I am the only one in my area using Eco2Pure, I can't get good prices due to shipping, etc. I guess I am going to stick with the Magnesol for now.

You are right about everyone building and using systems that fit our financial and technical ability. I think I am going to keep my eyes open for the material to build a column in the future. Technically, I am still quite a newbie, and I have a lot to learn. So your thoughts and time are greatly appreciated.
 
Registered: February 26, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Hi Knotwild, have you decided which way you are going with the Magnesol? I`ve seen on the Simply Centrifuge site that quite a few people are using a car power steering pump to run their Dieselcraft centrifuge and others of the same type. I`m sure that would get rid of the problems of your Magnesol being crushed.

Hope this helps stumpy. Smile
 
Location: Derbyshire UK | Registered: November 28, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post



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Thanks Stumpy. A friend of mine who has a plant that runs about 400 gallons a day tried the power steering pumps, but they kept burning up. Since dino diesel costs are down so low in this area, he went back to water washing.

I bought a sock filter housing for about $180 and use that instead of the centrifuge.

I am putting my fuel in an open tank (stock tank) where I can heat it to about 130F to demeth it. Once the methanol is gone the fuel clears in minutes. Then I let it settle 24-48 hours and drain the fuel through a stand pipe so I can clean the soap and glycerin out. Then I put the fuel back in the cleaned tank, mix the magnesol and let it settle 24-48 hours, let it gravity drain through two 5 micron sock filters and then pressure it with air through a 1 micron nominal in the filter housing. Then through a 1 micron abosolute sock in the filter housing to my storage tank. When it leaves the storage tank it goes back through the 1 micron absolute and a cansiter 1 micron absolute on the way to my truck.

It has been working great. I have also been pre-reacting with the glycerin from my previous batch before the final reaction. Titrations are always below 3 and soap in the settling tank is minimal once reacted. I have also had luck with reducing the methanol to 18% in combination with this recipe and the fuel always passes the 27/3 test.

This whole method saves me the time and energy of running a centrifuge for a couple of hours on each batch.

Best wishes, Jim
 
Registered: February 26, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Stumpy:
Here are come pictures I forgot to put in the last post:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/23333954@N06/
 
Registered: February 26, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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