Hi Legal,
yeah, it's working out great. I'm very happy with it. Like you, I'm recovering the methanol to drop out soaps prior to the resin. I've changed my methanol recovery in the last couple weeks and I'm getting much better results. My next step is to get some testing done before/after the resin from the same stream just as a reality check.

All the best.

Hi guys,

Yes, I HAVE been had!!

Yesterday I just got my replacement column, (a 46" tall x 10" dia. water purification tank that I plan to retrofit into a resin tower). Is it possible to go with only one tank for a system that let's you do only 45 gal at a time? How do you rinse the resin media with methanol in such a tank, (take it all out or push methanol through with the pump and let soak)?

My biggest problem, which I haven't figured out which system to adopt, is how to demethylate?? There is another company named extremebiodiesel.com in Corona, CA that also dry washes without mentioning demethylation. Another scam??

Thomas

Hello conspirator,

What sort of design are you using for methanolrecovery/demethylation?

Thomas

Thomas,
you do not necessarily have to remove the methanol out of your fuel prior to sending it through the resin. However, removing the methanol and the soaps that precipitate out as a result, will extend the life of your resin.

I have a conical bottom steel drum where I heat the fuel to biol off the methanol. The vapors used to exit into a 20 Ft copper coil that was basically hanging out in the air (no water jacket for cooling). The other end of the copper was attached directly to an empty methanol drum. There was a vent off the drum to the outside. This setup produced methanol.... but I lost a lot out my vent because the copper and the whole collection drum eventually got too hot.

So.... I added another 20 ft of copper coil (now 40 ft total), and I took my old wash tank (which was a 55 gal HDPE drum turned upside down on a stand with the bottom cut open) and attached the bottom end of the copper to the backside of one of the bungs inside the drum, then I filled the drum with water. So the 40 ft of copper is sitting in a water bath. As the water around the copper warms, convection currents form and the warm water rises. Eventually, the top 3 inches of water is warm, but the rest is still quite cool and does a great job of cooling the copper and condensing the methanol. The methanol drains off the bottom of the drum through the bung that has the copper attached to the backside. I have a valve on it, and collect the methanol into a 5 gal carboy. In between batches the entire water bath cools down again to 70-75*F ready for next time.

I am also not using a PID controller or any other sophisticated method of controlling the temp in my distillation tank. I started out adding an entire batch (43 gal) and heating to 210*F. This would only produce about a half gallon of methanol. I would get a steady stream of methanol between 180*F and 210*F, but as soon as I turned off the heat, the stream stopped. I knew there was more there to get.

The next change was to hold back 10 gallons of fuel. I would add only 33 gal to the distillation tank and start heating. When this would hit 200*F, I would add another 5 gal, which knocked the temp down to 185*F. When the temp again climbed to 200*F I would add the last 5 gal, knocking the temp back to 185*F. This time I let the temp go to 210*F before I stop heating. This method keeps the temp in the methanol producing range longer and I get 3 quarts of methanol back, instead of 2. Then it sits for 2 days to cool and drop out soaps, which get filtered out prior to pushing the fuel through the resin.

All the best,

OMG.

I'm still trying to read through your reply. This is the easiest way to demeth??

Since I STILL own a business and biodiesel was supposed to be a hobby (and also help the environment) I either go to water-wash or just brew beer in those tanks and get my bio from my current wholesaler. Just your mention of 200 deg. F makes my head spin since all I have are those lousy plastic tanks which probably start melting at 140 deg.

You guys are really great and help us amateurs a lot, but I'm SO frustrated right now I could scream. Especially since these companies out there still do business as usual, advertising that with "dry" wash one doesn't HAVE to demeth.

Thomas

Thomas,
you DON'T have to demeth before sending the fuel into the resin, but doing so will extend the life of the resin. But you also have to have enough resin to handle the flow. I have 150 lbs of Purolite PD206 split between 2 columns and my max flow rate is only a half gallon per minute.

BTW.. I'm just a rank amateur too.

Maybe you should just water wash. I used water to wash my fuel for over 2 years. It works fine.

Tom, you can do it with a simple set up but you won't get as much methanol back and I can't speak to how much you leave in the bd. A simple system is a water heater and a hose running into a auto radiator that has a fan blowing on it. That is what my glycerne slave uses and I know he does not get it all but hey, we trade gallon for gallon and I don't have to mess with it.

Just so there is no confusion the above method is for glyc not bd but the idea is the same.

Yes, I know that I don't have to demeth before, but for sure after, right? 'Cause methanol in the fuel is bad, or so I've been told. Erik (ebztz) from the bdnow forum freaked me out about the dangers of methanol, it's fumes and that I CAN'T vaporize it in the atmosphere. So, a simple system that takes care of that step would be great, especially since I still seem to have glycerin left in the fuel, (due to the methanol not releasing it, probably).
How many lbs of resin will I need for a 44" x 10" dia. tank? (filling it half of course).

What would the fuel look and work like if I filter it through this resin filled tank, after settling and glycerin drain, if I don't demeth at all?

Thomas

Thomas,
I think you are a little confused. One of the things the resin is supposed to take care of is the methanol. Passing your fuel through the resin is the last step. As for methanol evaporating into the atmosphere..... did you know that your windshield washer fluid is 40% methanol? Now multiply that by the millions of cars and trucks on the road that spray it all over their windshields regularly, only to have 100% of it evaporate into the atmosphere. I don't think I'm going to get too excited about a little methanol that escapes to the atmosphere in spite of my best efforts to prevent it. Oh well. I'm not trying to trivialize the dangers of methanol at all. I'm just being realistic.

Ebztz is on this forum too.

Glycerin left in your fuel?
How long do you settle before you drain off the glycerin? 12 hrs... minimum..... 24-36 hrs is better. Drain off the glycerin, de-meth the fuel/filter out soaps then pass the fuel through the resin. You're done. The resin should take care of any residual glycerin, which should be extremely little.

I've seen your size tank before..... mine are just a little bit larger. You need to have room for at least 110% expansion of the resin or you risk splitting open the tank. Your tank should be able to handle 50 lbs. Now the manufacturer requires a lead/lag setup with 2 tanks. I'm not going to tell you anything different.

All the best,

Hey Guys,

The resin will take out methanol but only to a point and as you load the resin with glycerin - this glycerin displaces the methanol.

Interestingly enough it is the methanol which is responsible for the largest expansion of the resin (say >100% expansion). So if you are running undemethed biodiesel to the resin bed, its initial expansion will be the greatest and then there will be a gradual reduction as this methanol is displaced by the new incoming glycerin. The bed if fully loaded with glycerin will be approx. 180% of the original bed depth/volume.

So using the resin to remove methanol, for anything other than residual amounts, will be unsuccessful at some relatively short period of time.

Also it doesn't take a lot of vacuum to remove methanol at lower temperatures. You can create a vacuum in even your HDPE tanks provided they can be sealed. We have seen methanol coming out at 110 deg. F under vac. however you are going to have difficulty getting to ASTM levels.

Many people just bubble the last methanol out using an inserted bubbler running off an air compressor.

GCG

quote:

Originally posted by AustroTom:
Yes, I know that I don't have to demeth before, but for sure after, right? 'Cause methanol in the fuel is bad, or so I've been told. Erik (ebztz) from the bdnow forum freaked me out about the dangers of methanol, it's fumes and that I CAN'T vaporize it in the atmosphere.

To be clear (since you've mis-paraphrased what I stated), here is my original post:

quote:

Where is the methanol you vaporize going? What vessel are you carrying out this process in? Do you realize that methanol vapors are very flammable and potentially explosive? Are there any sources of ignition (non-explosion proof electrical, furnace, etc) near your processor when you carry out this procedure? Are there humans near the processor at this time?

Something else to keep in mind. Since you're in California, liberating that much methanol into the atmosphere is likely not legal (VOC regs). Look up the Graham Laming Eco-processor. This type of system captures the methanol for reuse and avoids some hazards, as well as the pollution aspect.

Which, after another question, I clarified with this post:

quote:

There are reports of common things like a sparking drill and the opening of an overhead garage door igniting methanol explosions. This material is not to be trifled with; it's toxic and highly flammable. That said, there are thousands of people working with this material safely on a regular basis. You need to do your homework first; learning about safety via trial-and-error is, at best, unwise. Did you know that methanol vapors are heavier than air and will follow the ground (read), accumulating in low places like basements (think water heater ignition)?

Regarding the "methanol in fuel is bad" bit, here's what I stated:

quote:

Methanol and other alcohols are corrosive; Flex Fuel vehicles that burn alcohol have specially-selected components which are chemically-compatible. ASTM specs include the flash point test which is essentially a methanol test, but also an indicator of material flammability.

I'm in no way fear-mongering on this topic. Thomas has made it quite clear that he's not familiar with the process, fuel-quality, hazards, and so on. I've seen too many inexperienced brewers poison themselves with methanol. The have been more than enough methanol-related fires/explosions.

I think companies that sell shoddy/dangerous equipment do a disservice to their customers, and eventually this will lead to regulation for all.

Yes, Purolite will initially clean all the methanol out of the fuel until the resin becomes 'full'. Then, glycerin and soaps will displace the methanol which will be allowed to bleed through to your finished fuel which is obviously less than ideal. I would recommend de-mething the fuel prior to sending your fuel through the resin. I have no experience using vacuum distillation. I have only de-methed with heat and circulation.

Hello All,

Yes, I am inexperienced. Yes, I am confused, and yes, I am frustrated about the way I let myself be coned into an incorrect process of producing high-quality biodiesel.

Erik, I'm sorry if I have offended you or misinterpreted your quotes, but I tried to summarize, as I NEED to come to a conclusion to a situation which was supposed to be a hobby and a step to a certain degree of energy indenpendence.

Having said all that, I'm not stupid either. I HAVE done my homework, I have chosen resin dry-wash because of what I learned and read. It seemed to be the better alternative to water washing. BeachBio popped in my screen, advertising purolite instead of water and I thought this would be key. I ordered the system prior to the thread of companies to avoid, (you could imagine the surprise when I read that thread).

I KNOW the dangers of methanol, and having electric pumps and an electric water heater element on top of the pump made me all the more worried about explosion from vapor, (after Erik's reply), that I thought there was NO save handling of methanol at or around this processor AT ALL.

I'm NOT retired, and I'm also not unemployed, so making a graham-Laming eco and similar systems is not an option.
All these systems only make sense if you know that you get the initial investment back trough resale, (which enough of you do and therefore make it feasable).

So, my only options are either water wash and forget resin, demeth before resin, or scrap the whole thing and open a bakery

I thought of another option: Is it possible, (after draining the glycerin), to bubble wash the bd for one or two times to demeth and then send through one tank of resin to polish??

Sorry for asking so many questions.

Thomas

After draining the glyc I would get the bd hot then bubble wash.

Hey AustroTom,

Just as an FYI, depending on your use of diesel for your personal vehicles, the Return on Investment (even for the vendor-purchased processors) can be fairly quick.

For instance, most (tech) businesses consider an ROI of less than 3 years to be a profitable investment. I built a quick ROI calculator in excel to determine mine, and I will save aprox $3K/yr at the current cost of diesel, just by using Biodiesel in my personal cars.

I don't have the money to outlay on a BioPro or other systems, but spending $1-2K for a solid quality system still gives you an excellent short term ROI (or it does me, based on the miles my family drives each year). Even spending the amount to get a BP190 or BP150 still falls within the "profitable ROI calculation" used by several companies. That's without resale of BD...if you DO resell your product, you obviously get to a profitable calculation much quicker.

Just my 2 cents...
-Scott

Thanks for your incouraging words.

Raften: If I bubble wash once and then send it through the purolite would that have taken care of the demthylation process, and would have ASTM quality fuel? (I should say at this point that I don't want to collect any Methanol in the demethylation stage and therefore am not concerned about it). I just don't want it in the fuel. Which method do you think would be the best for bubble washing on a 50gal HDPE cone tank?

handcuff: It would be greatg if I would get the investment back but are not dependent on it, BUT if I keep adding stuff to this processor to make it look like nuclear reactor, that might blow it right out of the water.

Thomas

Thomas,

when you talk about bubble washing, you do know that involves water too... right? Or are you talking about just bubbling air up through your fuel to evaporate the methanol?

If water is involved, you'll need a drying stage too.

There is no quick and easy way to wash your fuel, wet or dry. If you decide to dry wash, you need to de-meth the fuel prior to putting it through the resin, or you will eventually get methanol bleeding through into your finished fuel. If you are going to water wash, then you need a wash tank and a drying tank. Both can be HDPE tanks if that's all you have.
Either way it takes some time and effort.

You can still make this work. If you want, send me a PM with your contact info and I will call you tonight.

All the best,

Thomas,
I missed at first where you said you cannot have the methanol fumes in the air so please disreguard my advice about bubbling it. I was thinking more of how I do it as I vent to atmosphere.

Just a note on resin column design and cost:

A recent customer of ours couldn't believe how inexpensive our columns are after we broke it down for him.

He decided to buy one (regardless of being capable of making one himself) and after receiving it, he highly recommended we make a post on the forum sharing the same break down of the cost involved for everyone to see - so here it is:

1) Column comes with 20 lbs of resin .......$160
2) All steel cone bottom ................... $25
3) 2 - malleable metal 1/2 couplings......... $3
4) 1/4" steel column top lid (w/7 cutholes)..$30
5) Silicon Rubber (bio compatible) gasket....$22
6) 2 - Flange rings .........................$10
7) Resin support grid wafer .................$37
8) 48" Steel Column Body (tube)..............$50
9) Stand Steel ..............................$20
10) Bolt,nuts, washer hardware................$3
Subtotal for materials $360

Now additionally there is at least 1.5 hours of welding time.
At an average cost of $60/hr this is another $90
New total cost $450.00
And then we powder coat the column (not paint it since Biodiesel
will eat up nearly any paint job) $50 min.
New total cost $500.00

All this doesn't include any shipping cost incurred for several
of these items you'll need to order from McMaster Carr or the like.

It also doesn't include your time and fuel cost involved to go get parts and equipment as well as other needed assembly labor - grinding metal, cutting out gaskets, etc...

And finally, when you receive the column it comes with a comprehensive users manual to ensure the smooth operation over the life of the column which benefits from all our past trials and errors. We believe this is probably the most valuable item of all...

We originally offered the columns at $489.00 but due to increases in resin cost the price went to $549.00.

What do you all think?

GCG

Hello,

I have been playing with GL push pull design for about 6 months now and have been modifying it repeatedly trying to find the simplest way to to demeth the biodiesel as well as get back the purest methanol. The vacuum system, although very good has led to many other technical issues that I think make the process more complicated than it has to be. So I came up with a stellar idea of bubbling with an air-compressor. Thankfully I have become wise enough to check here first and see that that method has already been tried and has some testing. Here the idea I am working on.

Start with the basic layout of Graham's Push/Pull set up. (I won't be using any reverse flow but its the same setup with inline heaters.) Then make 3 major modifications. 1) Remove the Vacuum system altogether and route the line at the top of the reacting vessel to the plumber's delight. Then from the plumbers delight, send the distilled liquid to a containment vessel. Then using another line vent the top of the containment vessel to the atmosphere. 2) Add an air compressor bubbling system to the reacting vessel itself so that bubbles come from the bottom of the reacting vessel. 3) Add into the circulating piping a sprayer so that the heated biodiesel is sprayed into the top of the reaction vessel.

Process.
After processing the WVO to Biodiesel and passing a 27/3 test, drain off remaining glycerol. (I am using the 80/20 technique but more about that in another post.) So now what you have left is biodiesel, some suspended glycerin, soap, water, and methanol. At this point, heat and recirculate the mixture and start the bubbler. The key here in the demeth process is to measure the temp at the top of the vessel where the methanol laden air is escaping. Assuming I can get that to a stable 148F or so (using a PID), shouldn't this drive off the methanol rather quickly without vacuum? Once that is complete, I think I can just turn up the heat even higher perhaps to 180F and the water should come off. I am HOPING if I run and bubble at 148F for an hour I should get most of the methanol out and another 2 hours of bubbling as the temp is raised higher should get most of the water out. Then pump into a settling tank to let cool and settle. Oh yeah, I will have to switch out the collecting vessel between the methanol recovery stage and water recovery stages.


What do you think? Am I missing something? Anybody know or read something from these forums that I simply don't know about this design?

Thanks
Doug

P.S. After I collect enough glycerol, I plan to use the same method to recover the methanol from that as well.