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Ahhh, I don't think you can rule out the bio Doug, linseed oil and rags are a known cause of spontaneous combustion.
 
Location: West Michigan | Registered: April 26, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by Doug Weiner:
Couple things about that soap test. I had the opportunity to meet with Daniel from Springboard (the guy who devised the test) and we got to talking. He seems to have refined the test. This refinement is not in the video. Also, we discussed a calculation that might have been in error and he agreed.

1) First, use 12ml of Bio, not 10ml. The math for the soap test is based on weight not volume. What is needed for the test is 10grams of Bio, not 10ml. Daniel's original assumption was that 1g=1ml. Its close, but since we are measuring for accuracy down to a few hundred PPM, might as well get it right. 10g of Bio is 12ml and that extra 2ml is a 20% difference, not an insignificant amount.

2) Bromo Blue is odd in that its a tri-color indicator. It changes from Blue to greenish at a ph of 4.6, keeps getting closer to yellow and then changes again to a bright yellow at 3.0. I asked Daniel where exactly do the soaps stop existing. At at ph of 4.6? At 3.0? I mean if you wait till 3.0 (bright yellow) it will require quite a bit more .01HCL then to pass 4.6. He indicated that 4.6 will do. So, the adjustment he made (not in the video) is only watch for the change from Blue to Green. To do so, you really need to accurately blank the solution using .01 HCL and your titration solution. Basically, after adding the bromo blue, drop in the .01HCL till the solution just turns green (or perhaps yellow). Now using small drops, drop in probably 1 drop of Titration solution to make it go blue again. To test again, drop in ONE drop of .01HCL, it should go green again maybe even yellow. Then use 1 drop of Titration solution to make it blue again. At this point you know you are are the teetering point of a ph of 4.6. Add your 12ml of Bio (you can weigh it like I did on a scale as you add it, but 12ml is very very close to 10g). From there, add you .01HCL till it just turns green. No need to go to bright yellow. Then count the ml of .01HCL and multiple 320 or 304. Also, don't forget to stir while you add the .01HCL. It makes a big impact. If you are doing it manually, stop adding and stir before adding more drops.

Doug


I'm not sure about your terminology here Doug, the .01N solution IS the titration solution, the bromo blue is the indicator.
 
Location: West Michigan | Registered: April 26, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Fabricator,

I see where I wasn't clear (even misspoke) using the term "Titration solution" and went back and re-edited my original post. In terms of blanking the Bromo Blue for the soap test, I meant use ".01 HCL and your BASE Titration solution (NaOH or KOH) ." As your question points out, Titration means "the operation of determining a concentration" and in this case both the .01 HCL and the NaOH or KOH Base Solution we use for calculating FFA content are both solutions used for Titrations. I mistakenly used "Titration Solution" as if it were something specific. Thanks for catching that.


Just did a quick google search about linseed oil and auto ignition. Didn't know that. Does it apply to bio-deisel as well? Perhaps someone could do an experiment like this one to see.
 
Location: Los Angeles | Registered: March 25, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Thanks Doug, I pretty much knew what you were doing but it's good to be clear for folks who might not be comfortable with the soap test yet.
The color thing is very interesting I always blank and go to a bright yellow end point, I'll try this method on tomorrows batch.
 
Location: West Michigan | Registered: April 26, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Originally posted by emiperformance:
I read somewhere a few pages back about someone's woodchips catching fire?
Well, it happened to me yesterday. Eek went out to my shed about 11:30AM and there was smoke coming outof it. Not much but when I opened the door it was full of smoke. the wood chips was on fire and by the looks of the remaining chips, it must of been lit for quite some time. I got REALLY Lucky that all I ended up with is the soot from the smoke on the inside roof of the shed and a melted piece of PVC pipe. it should of or reather should of been alot worse. Just a warning to everyone else. I need to re-think how I use my wood chips since in south Florida, it get HOT. it was about 100 degrees in the shed not related to the smoke. the only option I can think of is to leave the wood chips full of Bio and only drain when the new batch is ready to be put in so that the chips are always in bio and not left to dry...

Now time to clean my pants Big Grin


Danny

Danny I hate it when my britches get messy !
Danny and All
I have been reading this and the other thread ( 90 pages of AE )
and humbled by the real intelligence and meticulous work exhibited here by many.
Thanks for sharing All of You !!!
I have a very small deal in North Alabama. We have some really nice equipment and trying to make a difference in our small commuinity converting WVO to Off Road for sale.
Our Oil has been steady around 6T-7T Final 14T-15T. I finally made fuel with a high enough concentration of soap to stress my Amberlite tower and final Filter /FPM.
Would like to Fill my Aberlite tower with wood and then push in to a quad barrel setup like Rolfquo.
MY tower holds two $600 cans of Amberlite . 55 Gallon barrels are cheap and my friend is a successful tree man so this should be a no brainer for me. I need pictures Please on how to plumb it up. I remember reading in at least 2 places on how to convert 55 gallon drums and cant find again. ( I believe 1 was the interview with Rolfquo) Any suggestions also about converting my existing tower with wood greatly appreciated.
I can control the flow through the amberlite / wood tower and like the fact that the wood can take the heat. I worry about particulate and compaction with sawdust. Should I use shavings ? Sawdust ? We cant afford to be down.
I hope somehow someday I can return the favor.
Tom


1999 K3500 Dually with a new AMG 6.5TD turned up a bit by John Kennedy
Chevy DMax Totaled thanks to a 20 year old in a Mustang
Mercedes 300CDT
John Deere
On B99.?
 
Location: Decatur, Al | Registered: September 03, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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The filter set up in on my website here. First part is modifying the reverse flow water softener tanks and the other part is about RolfQuo's filters in a drum set up.

My present system uses one of RolfQuo's drums (a generous gift) which is put IN FRONT of my lead/lag Purolite PD206 resin beds. The resin becomes redundant and an additional filter should it be needed. I finish it all off with a 2 micron CATerpillar fuel filter.

If you put the resin in front of the chips you are defeating the purpose of using chips in the first place.

HTH



** Biodiesel Glycerine Soap - The Guide
- on 5 continents helping people make & sell soap from the Biodiesel Glycerine.


 
Location: :-) Great White North eh ? | Registered: December 10, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post



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Thank you for the reply.
These were the pictures I could not gete back to.
TYVM !!!
Yes I understand the fuel needs to flow through the chips first.
My Processor will be modified soon by the Mfr to speed up the methanol recovery cycle.
Pretty sure at that time we can replumb to pass hot/ demethed Bio through what is now the amberlite tower but will fill with wood chips instead of amberlite. I thought from there a Quad Rolfquo
Drum Setup where my 100-110 gallon batch could reside in wood chips until the next batch is pushed through. The drums would empty in to a 275 gallon Tote where the FPM can do a final Polish.
Maybe even through a Resin Tower before the Tote.
Our Fuel has been good quality I believe mostly due to Leon's 6000 RPM Raw Power Centrifuge cleaning and dewatering the feedstock.
Any way to get a closeup or description of the cutout pipe on the bottom of the barrell ?
How big of an orafice is needed on the pipe covered by 70 mesh?? The half pipe over the mesh should clear by how much ?? Just trying to keep weight off and compaction ??
I cant help but believe that sawdust will be a problem and shooting for as maint free service
as possible. Has anybody tried this with Glycerin ?? Do you suppose this configuration would work with a bleaching clay and run our Glycerin through it??
Thanks again
regards
Tom


1999 K3500 Dually with a new AMG 6.5TD turned up a bit by John Kennedy
Chevy DMax Totaled thanks to a 20 year old in a Mustang
Mercedes 300CDT
John Deere
On B99.?
 
Location: Decatur, Al | Registered: September 03, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Hi Hamlin205,
It's quite simple and cheap to devise a wood filter. Here are some close ups of my test rig.
http://biodieselpictures.com/viewtopic.php?t=778
Now I use a 330gallon tote with the top cut out. Same basic concept. Just use your imagination.

There doesn't seem to be any compaction with the poplar shavings I use.
On the test rig, I circulated the fuel and the fine dust lands on top of the shavings.

And keep the wood submerged in bio- Always. It can ignite from exposure. It doesn't float.
If you get the right wood, you wont be sorry.
Good luck.

Brian


1996 K2500 4x4 6.5TD
 
Location: Southern Indiana USA | Registered: June 20, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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RolfQuo's is a 1 1/2" pipe cut out in length with a 70 mesh SS screen riveted into it. Capped at one end and reduced to 1/2" at the other to screw onto the nipple that goes through the drum wall and is brazed on either side. Ball valve at the bottom for control. You can use this for a gravity fed system or use very low air pressure to move things along. In my case I use the same type of by-pass I had set up for my wash and dry tanks, and that is enough to move the flow along.
I am not in any kind of hurry so a slower flow rate suits me and gives more residence time for the biodiesel.

The way RolfQuo explained it to me is they cut a drain pipe (3 or 4" dunno) in half lengthwise and just rest that over the screen filter to protect it from compaction. The open ends allow for plenty of flow room.

HTH



** Biodiesel Glycerine Soap - The Guide
- on 5 continents helping people make & sell soap from the Biodiesel Glycerine.


 
Location: :-) Great White North eh ? | Registered: December 10, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by Hamlin205:
Thank you for the reply.
These were the pictures I could not gete back to.
TYVM !!!
Yes I understand the fuel needs to flow through the chips first.
My Processor will be modified soon by the Mfr to speed up the methanol recovery cycle.
Pretty sure at that time we can replumb to pass hot/ demethed Bio through what is now the amberlite tower but will fill with wood chips instead of amberlite. I thought from there a Quad Rolfquo
Drum Setup where my 100-110 gallon batch could reside in wood chips until the next batch is pushed through. The drums would empty in to a 275 gallon Tote where the FPM can do a final Polish.
Maybe even through a Resin Tower before the Tote.
Our Fuel has been good quality I believe mostly due to Leon's 6000 RPM Raw Power Centrifuge cleaning and dewatering the feedstock.
Any way to get a closeup or description of the cutout pipe on the bottom of the barrell ?
How big of an orafice is needed on the pipe covered by 70 mesh?? The half pipe over the mesh should clear by how much ?? Just trying to keep weight off and compaction ??
I cant help but believe that sawdust will be a problem and shooting for as maint free service
as possible. Has anybody tried this with Glycerin ?? Do you suppose this configuration would work with a bleaching clay and run our Glycerin through it??
Thanks again
regards
Tom


Chips will NOT remove soap from hot bio, at anything over room temp there is a reduction in the chips ability to absorb soap because it is too fluid, it just passes through, also if you run cool bio through chips and remove soap, then run hot bio through the same chips the soap will heat up and go back into suspension in the bio.
 
Location: West Michigan | Registered: April 26, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Chips will NOT remove soap from hot bio, at anything over room temp there is a reduction in the chips ability to absorb soap because it is too fluid, it just passes through, also if you run cool bio through chips and remove soap, then run hot bio through the same chips the soap will heat up and go back into suspension in the bio.



Hmmm. I find slightly different results using NaoH catalyst. Sawdust does remove soap from my hot bio. Not all of it in one pass but it removes the bulk and the bio comes out cold at the end of the 200lt drum. I have added a second drum in a lead lag configuration and this has speeded things up greatly. After one pass through each drum the soap is reduced enough for the bio to pass my "Nuke 'n' Spin" Tm Pat pending Winktest. I might add a third drum, also in series, as I have reason to suspect that this will lead to maximum demeth and soap removal per KG of sawdust over time. Each drum being moved up in the chain once the first drum is totally exausted.

The hot bio, cold bio thing is something I have noticed with the resin that is washed from the wood. Once it precipitates from the bio it will filter out from the cold bio. Hot bio will relase it again. It does look like very fine, even and plentiful soap drop out. It is possible the same thing can happen with soap but as I understand it soap cannot dissolve in meth free bio, even hot bio. The sawdust demeths my bio; I believe this is the mechanism of action that makes it work.


mathematical elegance -- desired result achieved with minimal complication
 
Location: Manchester UK | Registered: June 03, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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RolfQuo


They say that the meth used to clean the wood can be used to make batches of bio. This would suggest that wood resins are removed with the byproduct during processing and settling. This might mean an easy way to deresin bio used to wash sawdust before use. Simply add it to a freshly processed batch and circulate for awhile before settling.


mathematical elegance -- desired result achieved with minimal complication
 
Location: Manchester UK | Registered: June 03, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post



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I'm presently water washing but want to change to wood shaving dry washing now. I have a 45 gallon drum with a drain tap near the bottom, which I intend to half fill with either woodchips or sawdust. Then add the biodiesel. Would it be adviseable to stir the mixture a few times, or just let it work it's way down through the woodchips? Also, would it be better to use large chips rather than sawdust, as I have a feeling that sawdust would compact too much and block the biodiesel from working it's way down to the bottom of the tank and out through the drain tap? I would really appreciate any ideas on the best way to do this!! David.
 
Registered: June 09, 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Speed is not the key - surface area is.

1 - Gravity is fine, no need to mix. If you are concerned, re-circulate filtered bio once or twice through.
1A. Also, find a way to 'spray' the bio over the chips. A 12" piece of PVC with some holes drilled into the bottom and side will do fine. It doesn't need to be fancy. You just don't want the bio spurting downward into only one area of the wood chips. Apparently, it tends to form a path down to the drain and then you get very little filtering. - imagine it looks like one of those glass ant farms.

2 - Woodchips - Smaller the better. Put a bed of bigger chips on the bottom to help prevent the smaller dust from building up on the screen at the bottom. Also, do not use a fine screen at the bottom. The sawdust will clog it and its a real ***** to empty a drum of bio and sawdust (guess how I know.) Use a coarse 12 by 12 screen or the like. Also, use hardwood sawdust. I use shredded redwood bark that I sit in the sun to dry out first.

After wood chip filtering, I use a 10 micron screw type filter before I pump the filtered bio to my resin. If you skip resin, using a 10 micron before your fillings station is still not a bad idea. Much easier to change a 10 micron filter than emptying a clogged barrel. (I spilled at least 12 gallons all over the garage floor)

Doug
 
Location: Los Angeles | Registered: March 25, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Originally posted by flapjack:
I'm presently water washing but want to change to wood shaving dry washing now. I have a 45 gallon drum with a drain tap near the bottom, which I intend to half fill with either woodchips or sawdust. Then add the biodiesel. Would it be adviseable to stir the mixture a few times, or just let it work it's way down through the woodchips? Also, would it be better to use large chips rather than sawdust, as I have a feeling that sawdust would compact too much and block the biodiesel from working it's way down to the bottom of the tank and out through the drain tap? I would really appreciate any ideas on the best way to do this!! David.


You will need some sort of fine grid with a fairly large surface area to have a decent flow rate; the sawdust will block a tap. And yes sawdust does compact; this results in air being trapped and reducing washing efficiency and flow rate. I use a long thin rod to probe thru the sawdust, but generally some air gets trapped. For a 45 gallon drum 2/3 - 3/4 filled with sawdust a flow rate of 1 - 2 L/min is fine. The last few gallons will come thru very slowly - its sometimes best to leave it in and get it with the next batch so that youve always got a half decent flow rate.
 
Location: Scotland | Registered: March 19, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Hi Jehu,

Do you send hot or cooled bio through your sawdust drum?

Thanks,

Pierre
 
Registered: July 07, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I've been brewing bio in my garage for 5-6 years and am now switching to drywash. Not sure though whether i can pump my bio immediately after glycerine dropout or wait for it to cool. Would like to continue demething, but if I wait too long to cool, then the soaps precipitate and plug my lines. Ideally , I would demeth (using the GL venturi/plumber's delight system I've been using) then immediately run it, still hot, through the sawdust (I have cherry and maple). I see here one poster stating hot bio wont drop its soap in the wood chip dry wash, and another that says it makes no difference. Any new developments on this issue?
 
Registered: July 07, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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If your demething tank has a standpipe letting it cool will be no problem nor will the soap drop out be limiting. The soap is SUPPOSED to drop out of solution after demething, that's the point. Once demethed and cooled allow to settle out for at least 24 hrs before using dry media. A coalescer/centrifuge would allow you to do it quicker, but they ain't cheap.



** Biodiesel Glycerine Soap - The Guide
- on 5 continents helping people make & sell soap from the Biodiesel Glycerine.


 
Location: :-) Great White North eh ? | Registered: December 10, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post



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I would prefer not adding and extra step - i would either demeth then settle (à la GL) OR demeth and run through sawdust. Not both. My only question is whether the sawdust will remove the soaps from hot bio.

Seems like that question is not yet fully answered on this forum.
 
Registered: July 07, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Careful, putting hot bio into sawdust or wood shavings can result in a rapid build up of heat according to Hannes, had him v worried.
 
Location: Cape Town | Registered: May 17, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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