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Jon-I apologise to you or any other member if I came across as anyway negative,that was not my intent and of course goes against the good nature that I try and promote on this forum.
The Ireland threads have been a great place of help, advice and good comradeship and wouldn't like to bring it into disrepute.
It is not the what Tilly says it's the way that he says it, I don't want to go into it as it would do nothing but prolong the argument but we believe he's aims to disrupt more than help.

I and I'm sure the other members will use the option to ignore his posts rather than comment which seems to cause nothing but disruption to an other wise helpful thread.
dgs has a pm thread dedicated to his reduced KoH method of making bio which is very interesting if you want to read up on it.
 
Location: County down, Northern Ireland | Registered: August 10, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by imakebiodiesel:
Jon, Dgs has been achieving high conversion with as little as 4gms/litre of Koh with oil that has been neutralized by his Enhanced Glycerol Pretreatment. That figure cannot be directly compared with normal processing of oil that contains FFAs and DGs has never suggested that it should be.

Oh I get it now. I no longer pretreat with glycerine as I do WBD exclusively now so I likely zoned out when it got to pre-treatment, I have selective comprehension... Big Grin
Trigger, no need to apologize!
I was just trying to figure out what I was missing...
Cheers,
Jon
 
Location: Wellington County, Ontario Canada | Registered: February 07, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Hi Jon,

quote:
Originally posted by Jon Heron:
That would be remarkable, though it sounds like bunk to me.
Is this using new or zero titrating oil?
I cant see that this could be possible with standard base reactions, even in a flask with maximum mixing.
Please point me to this experiment or post so I can read it for myself? That would result in a major savings in caustic, half the standard base amount.
I found the post here, second post down,
http://www.vegetableoildiesel....php?tid=38140&page=5

Posted by dgs 14/11/2014
"As I now use an eductor for processing, Thanks to this forum for pointing me in the right direction (todays batch was fully converted on 4.0 gms KOH/litre) At this catalyst level a much smaller amount of soap is produced. I give the bio one wash of glycerol with no soap (this brings the soap down to @ 100ppm, then pump wash straight away."



quote:
As far as I can see Tilly is pointing out facts, whether you like them or not they are facts and I view the posting of facts a good thing for our community.
It is like a breath of fresh air to have you advocating the scientific approach on this forum.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Tilly,






 
Location: ลึก ประเทศอินเดีย | Registered: March 03, 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Hi Trigger,
quote:
Originally posted by Trigger:
Jon-I apologise to you or any other member if I came across as anyway negative,that was not my intent and of course goes against the good nature that I try and promote on this forum.
Your apology is accepted



quote:
It is not the what Tilly says it's the way that he says it,
That is my accent. I have lived in Oz for a long time. People in Oz say I have a strong American Accent but when I visit the US, people there say I have an unusual accent. One person described it as a "continental" accent.
I am currently trying to develop a South African accent, so in a year or two you should notice a difference


quote:
I don't want to go into it as it would do nothing but prolong the argument but we believe he's aims to disrupt more than help.
Who is the "we" you are the spokesperson for?
I know I do get annoyed with these claims that the fallout in a Warnqvest test is in a 1 to 1 correlation with conversion and tells you conversion with an accuracy of 1%. It is just not true, the testing was done a long time ago.
On the other hand, I have helped find the reason imakebiodiesel's reactors are having so much trouble making biodiesel that passes warnqvest in a single stage reaction and that should be benefiial for a lot of people.






 
Location: ลึก ประเทศอินเดีย | Registered: March 03, 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by imakebiodiesel:
Jon, Dgs has been achieving high conversion with as little as 4gms/litre of Koh with oil that has been neutralized by his Enhanced Glycerol Pretreatment. That figure cannot be directly compared with normal processing of oil that contains FFAs and DGs has never suggested that it should be.

I would say its inaccurate to say your "achieving high conversion bio with as little as 4g/l" when you are adding caustic to your pretreat. You need to add the amount of caustic you put in your pretreat to that 4g/l.
Does the amount of caustic in the "enhanced glycerol" equate to about 4g/l of WVO in the batch?
Please define "neutralized".
Cheers,
Jon
 
Location: Wellington County, Ontario Canada | Registered: February 07, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Hi Jon,
Let me try to clear things up here.

ALL the most recent test batches I have done have had NO KOH added to the glycerol that I have used to pre-treat the oil with.

I have found that after pre treating via the eductor the oil is neutral. Neutral to me means that there is no alkaline or acidic properties displayed when trying to titrate with a suitable indicator.

The batch that was fully reacted on 4.0gms KOH/litre oil was 80 litres of oil.
The total amount of KOH used in the 1st reaction was 304gms. This 1st reaction reached completion in 20 mins. (although I let it run for 1 hour to see if there was any further conversion, which there wasn't. it was 99.5% ) this equates to 0.05 mls dropout on 10/90.

Second reaction total of 15gms KOH in @ 100 mls methanol. I left it for 30 mins and there was no dropout.

I used 14% methanol for the 1st reaction and throughout the temperature was 58 to 62 degs C.Another important point is that the glycerol I used to pre-treat was from these low KOH processes.
I do realise that even this glycerol contains some "unspent" catalyst, but as I have mentioned before it is only logical to assume that what is gained is also lost when the glycerol is separated.

I do not intend to ever do a test batch on any oil without pre-washing as this is the way I normally process so whatever the outcome, doing this would not really tell me anything.

I hope this clarifies things.
 
Location: YORK UK | Registered: April 27, 2014Reply With QuoteReport This Post



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Hi Dgs,

quote:
Originally posted by Dgs:

ALL the most recent test batches I have done have had NO KOH added to the glycerol that I have used to pre-treat the oil with.
How much methanol and KOH was in the glycerine to begin with? It seems that the "rule" is that if you do not know how much chemicals there is in the mix you call it 0



quote:
The batch that was fully reacted on 4.0gms KOH/litre oil was 80 litres of oil.
The total amount of KOH used in the 1st reaction was 304gms.
The first reaction occurred when you mixed the glycerine with the WVO and you seem to not include those chemicals in the reaction totals or even know how much there was. Then you apparently performed a second and third reaction.


quote:
This 1st reaction reached completion in 20 mins. (although I let it run for 1 hour to see if there was any further conversion, which there wasn't. it was 99.5% ) this equates to 0.05 mls dropout on 10/90.
This is the first time I have heard that a dropout of 0.05ml in the 10/90 test is 99.5%. Please provide a link to the testing.
If your biodiesel was 99.5% after the second stage, why did you do a third stage?

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Tilly,






 
Location: ลึก ประเทศอินเดีย | Registered: March 03, 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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He Just won't leave it alone!
 
Location: YORK UK | Registered: April 27, 2014Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Hi Dgs,
I just can not get very excited about what you have done when I do not really know what you have done.
You started the reaction going with an unknown amount of methanol and KOH already in the glycerine.

Then after you drained the glycerine from that reaction it took another 4g KOH to finish the reaction. Was that good bad or indifferent? I don't know. I don't know the amount of chemicals being used.

If you are trying to see if the eductor is beneficial to lowering the chemicals required for the reaction, you should run some comparison tests using identical oil and chemicals and everything else except the eductor being on or off the reactor and see if there is any meaningful difference in the biodiesel produced.


All I can see from your testing is that the pre-wash/ first reaction with the glycerine seems to take the reaction further than people originally thought it did. And that probably depends on the titration of the oil.






 
Location: ลึก ประเทศอินเดีย | Registered: March 03, 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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If you were party to the private thread dedicated to this topic you would understand better Dgs's progression with his process. But seen as you are not I suggest we continue this discussion there guys before this degrades into a constipated mess.
 
Registered: September 27, 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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DGS,
I think I understand what you did, correct me if I am wrong:
You did a standard glycerine pretreat on your 80L batch which led to a titration of zero for your 80L of WVO.
The glycerine used for the pretreat was from a 2 stage base reacted batch done with a total of 4g/L and 14% methanol with no extra caustic added.
After pretreat you did a 2 stage process using a total of 4g/l of oil which led to a 3/27 pass after 1.5h of processing.
Do I have that right?
If so that seems too good to be true!
What was the starting titration of your WVO?
I used to do glycerine pretreat all the time in my smaller reactor but the most it would ever bring down the tiration was about 2 points (NaOH) if I was lucky.
No offence womble but I prefer to keep things on the open forum where everyone can add their input and can learn from these exercises.
Besides that I have access to the PM threads and I cant answer any of Tilly's valid questions above either.
I am confused and trying to understand if there really is any savings in caustic or not, it sure sounds like it but some simple questions must be answered first so others can try this and see if the results can be duplicated...
Cheers,
Jon
 
Location: Wellington County, Ontario Canada | Registered: February 07, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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[QUOTE]
No offence womble but I prefer to keep things on the open forum where everyone can add their input and can learn from these exercises.
/QUOTE]

None taken Jon, me too but unfortunately a lot of us in this corner of the forum are burned out from a long line of hassle spanning over a year. You have asked basically the same thing as Tilly but in an inquiring amenable manner, as opposed to just punching holes in statements made. Which when perpetual and added to all the hassle we have had before means many of us just have no time or patience for it anymore and would rather do without, hence the many productive private threads going at the minute.
 
Registered: September 27, 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post



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Hi Everyone.

I have very little time for Faith base Science
I have very little time for magic based science.
I do not genuflect towards Lismore when I log on to the forum
I do not grovel and ask for forgiveness if I tell someone I disagree or have concerns with what they have said.
I believe chemistry is the same in Ireland, the UK, Canada, Australia, New Zealand and probably other places too

If you find that a bit hard...well...

However, since I have been here, I have straightened out the nonsensical magic based “titirationless Method” It works fine as long as you know the titration of the oil and adjust the chemicals accordingly. Otherwise it is a very limited procedure that does not work at all the way the Wiki write up says.

I have sorted out the growing nonsensical belief that the fallout in the warnqvest test is in 1 to 1 correlation with conversion and that you can tell the conversion percent of the biodiesel with an accuracy of 1% using the Warnvest test.

I have found the cause of imakebiodiesel's reactors not reliably making biodiesel that passes warnqvest in a single stage.
I do not understand why, in all these years, no one else has spotted that an 80- 100 watt mixing pump is totally inadequate to mix 150 litres of oil. This has been common knowledge on the main forum for years.

As a side note, I was quite surprised when one member of the “Irish Think tank” posted he had never heard of DI and IDI diesels.
I was absolutely floored when he said he was not familiar with the”BioPro” biodiesel reactor.

You fellows would really benefit from joining the rest of the world on the main forum instead of hiding over here on the Ireland forum. If you have a question, the answer is probably on the main forum. As it is you seem to spend 80% to 90% of your time reinventing the wheel.

PS My South African accent is coming along quite nicely!






 
Location: ลึก ประเทศอินเดีย | Registered: March 03, 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Ag shame
 
Location: Johannesburg South Africa | Registered: October 09, 2012Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Jon Heron,
yes, you have the details exactly correct.
My oil is very low titration, between 1.0 and 1.5 KOH.

With my larger 400 litre processor, fitted with a 100lpm pump and no eductor, the process would use @ 10gms/litre for full conversion.

The difference with the smaller processor is the more efficient mixing due to the piusi self priming pump fitted with the 3/8" eductor.

I have never witnessed anyone elses eductor in action, but this set up has to be seen to be believed.
 
Location: YORK UK | Registered: April 27, 2014Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Hi Dgs,

quote:
My oil is very low titration, between 1.0 and 1.5 KOH....

With my larger 400 litre processor, fitted with a 100lpm pump and no eductor, the process would use @ 10gms/litre for full conversion.
Are you saying that when you react WVO titrating between 1KOH and 1.5KOH in your big reactor, you need to run a first stage glycerine pre-wash containing an unknown amount of chemicals followed by two more stages of reaction containing a total of 10g KOH to pass warnqvest?
That sounds excessive. It sounds like there might be a mixing problem with your big reactor.
As some of us know, a major reason for conversion problems when using a pump mixed reactor is a lack of mixing vigor with the pump.
You do need to remember that pump ratings are not based on pumping WVO so the 100 lpm rating on your pump is not what you would actually be pumping.

It would be informative if you would run comparison test reactions using your small reactor both with and without the eductor with no first stage glycerine reaction containing an unknown amount of chemicals.
Then we would have a much clearer picture of what effect, if any, the eductor is actually having on chemical use.

If you are unsure how to set up and run this comparison test I will be glad to help you.
I have performed many comparison tests over the years.

I will point out again that the KOH is NOT a reactant in the biodiesel producing reaction, it is a catalyst. I am not sure what is accomplished if you reduce the KOH used or what it means.
I personally am more concerned with how much methanol is used. The methanol is the expensive part.






 
Location: ลึก ประเทศอินเดีย | Registered: March 03, 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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It would be informative if you would run comparison test reactions using your small reactor both with and without the eductor with no first stage glycerine reaction containing an unknown amount of chemicals.
Then we would have a much clearer picture of what effect, if any, the eductor is actually having on chemical use.

If you are unsure how to set up and run this comparison test I will be glad to help you.
I have performed many comparison tests over the years.
Originally posted by Tilly.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Go on then Tilly lets do the test your way, you tell me exactly what to do, then maybe you will not criticise my testing as much (if that is humanly possible)
 
Location: YORK UK | Registered: April 27, 2014Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Hi Dgs,

quote:
Originally posted by Dgs:
Go on then Tilly lets do the test your way, you tell me exactly what to do, then maybe you will not criticise my testing as much (if that is humanly possible)
I said I would help you, I did not say I would tell you exactly what to do or what to test for.
We can work together on this. I think it would be great if other people added their thoughts

The first thing you need to decide is what you want to test for.
It needs to be very specific because there can be only one Variable when performing comparison tests.






 
Location: ลึก ประเทศอินเดีย | Registered: March 03, 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post



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Surely the way to proceed is to have;

Same oil volume, same temperature, same % methanol and same KOH amount, except the test without the eductor will take roughly double the amount of KOH as testing with the eductor.

The oil will be from the same tank and I will not add any whilst the tests are being done.

Why don't I do the 'with eductor' test first as it is all set up for this. If you agree I will use my usual 14% methanol, so how much KOH do you suggest I proceed with?
 
Location: YORK UK | Registered: April 27, 2014Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Hi Dgs,
What are you trying to find out by performing the test?
That is the first thing that you need to decide.
It sounds like you want to find out whether using an eductor for mixing will reduce the amount of KOH required to perform the reaction.
Is that correct?






 
Location: ลึก ประเทศอินเดีย | Registered: March 03, 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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