Forgive me if I ask a simple question that probably has been covered here but I'm still trying to piece together the puzzle about the "Laming Airwash Process" and methanol recovery. If a person is using a closed Appleseed reactor (in my case a water heater), the glycerin is drained off, then the BD is heated, and the methanol is recovered as described by "bigroy", will soap not begin to drop out inside the reactor and create a big mess that can not be easily cleaned? Or does soap drop out after it is transferred to a settling tank where it is then bubbled or recirculated/sprayed? I am very eager to do this on my next batch so I'm trying to figure out what modifications I need to do to my system. Please explain! Thanks a bunch!

Hi subzilla

That's a good question and one which bothered me too before I tried it.

If you keep your pump running all the time you are distilling, the soap seems to remain in little lumps in the biodiesel, and comes out when you pump to the filter / settling tank.

There may be a small amount which sticks to the sides, but I've not had enough to cause any problems.

Your next batch should re-dissolve any little remaining soap, which will then be purged the next run.

Hope that helps,

Thanks for the quick reply, Graham. I've been using KOH so far and I know there's been some discussion about that on the other 23 page post that you started!! Do you think this will act in the same manner concerning the suspended soap particles? I read about others skimming soap off the top and sides so like you said, so I am a little bothered and concerned. Also, will the 130F degrees of my preset WH element be enough to drive off the methanol?

So, to sum it up:
1. process BD as usual with KOH
2. add 5% prewash, circulate for 15 minutes, stop
3. let settle for an hour, drain glycerin
4. turn on heat and circulate till methanol is gone (test for methanol absence by heating sample and look for bubbles) Time??
5. move immediatly to settling tank, do not stop recirculation
6. run BD through 10 micron filter (jean legs) till clear.
7. run BD through my 2 micron filter for additional stuff

Does this sound right? Thanks for the info!

Howdy all,
I am getting things together to put a condensor on my processor. I have found 1" & 3/4" copper pipe for free, and hoped that I could put them together. Do you think that I can get enough of a crimp on the 3/4" as it goes into the 1"? I plan to smash it with the vice on my work bench.

I am planning on using the top element hole (that is now plugged) to add air. I was going to use a quick release puenmatic valve, but do you think that I should use a ball valve as well?

When you add air to the processor while you are distilling, will you continue to collect methanol, or will it stop when the element shuts off? (I'm not sure by the past posts.) (I know that my temp. continues to climb even after I turn off the element.)

H.F. has a fountain pump on sale, I am planning to use it for the cold water circulating in the condensor.

I am open for suggestions. I cook off a batch about once a week, and hope to get start a batch later this week with my new condensor. I have had a friend from MS who has helped me get off the ground, and would greatly appreciate help as I forge ahead.

Thanks...Doyle

Hi Doyle

You should be fine with your 3/4 in 1".

Just do a few tests to see how far you can crimp the 3/4" pipe before it becomes too wide to fit in the 1". Crimp a little less than that.

Don't use any air in the beginning. I'd suggest you add heat the whole time you're distilling without air. You will need to constantly add energy. Set your thermostat temperature to around 200F.

Keep your circulating pump going the whole time.

Then, and only then, when the distillation rate drops to very slow, add air very slowly, and cut the heat input. There should be enough stored heat in the liquid to allow the air to carry the small remaining amount of methanol out thru the condenser.

If you add too much air, your liquid output will drop or stop, same with too little. At some point you'll find the optimum air injection rate which will drop as the process continues, to a point where almost nothing is left.

Then you can increase the air input to mop up the little remaining methanol.

Hope that helps.

Howdy... Graham Laming

I do appreciate your help. You suggested I heat the BD up to 200 degrees.

The temp. coming out of my circulating pump is usually about 15-20 degrees hotter than what is coming out of the tank. Where should I read the 200 degrees? (I have a infered thermometer that I check the temp on the outside of the pipes.)

This is off topic to the sub forum but sort of on topic to the thread itself.

Why not use a really long one of these to pass bio through? pass chilled brine through the condenser at subzero temps.

Big liquid liquid heat exchanger that chills the bio to subzero temps.

Pass the chilled bio through a sock filter of suitable rating.

You have just winterised your bio using a method guaranteed to work.

Select the sub zero temp of your choice you want to work to.

You would probably want to lag the condensor and some other pipework to keep the heat out.

Hello Graham,

Great design! I'm going to build one too.

How long should I make mine? Yours is 1.25m long. How did you come to your length?

Is there a length to volume ratio or something of that nature? some mathmatical formula?

Thanks,
ALay

I ran my condenser this last weekend and collected about 1/2 gallon of methanol. (I use about 36 gallons of WVO at a time.) It seemed to work well. I have a few things to do to make it better. (my water was on a timer that stopped when I turned my back. I came back and it was venting out the window.) I have a carboy that I drilled a hole in the lid to and run the methaonol into it. (the hose fit tightly into it) There is a valve on the other side that I put a 3/8 inch hose on and ran it out the window. When I was done, I put a lid on it, in place of the one with the hole drilled in, and sealed if off.

I am concerned about getting my B.D. too hot while I'm getting the methonol off. It seems to be true that the methonol comes out only when the element was on. (another thing I will need to work on)

I was wondering about the methanol that I have captured? How can I tell how pure it is? I did not do a pre-wash, so I don't think there is much moisture in it, but it is a light brown color instead of the clear that I use to start with. (Do you think there is a little B.D. in it? or is this because I scorched the B.D.) It seems to be running just fine in my F250.

I sure appreciate everyone's help!

and someone just suggested you could use one as a static mixer for your process too.

Is this a still to recover methanol from your BIO or is it for recovering methanol from the GLYCEROL?

If it is to drive the meth out of the BIO then what is your next step? Do you still wash and dry as usual? I really feel in the dark trying to figure out recovery..

EDIT: I followed some of Graham's posts and have made more sense out of the process. So my questions evolve:

The above thread addresses recovering methanol from BD. I am guessing the crud left in the bottom of the water heater is no big deal as you let it settle again anyway and drain off the bottom crud.

You DO still wash and dry, I see that. This just makes it wash a little easier AND recovers the meth. Good!

So what about recovering from the glycerol? Do you do it in the same vessel (but NOT at the same time as the BD)? I've seen stills discussed, but does this method work for that as well?

And doesn't the BD screw up the Harbor Freight pumps as well?

Lots of questions..

Hi beanboon

I don't wash the biodiesel with water. After removing ALL the methanol, I pump the biodiesel thru filters into a storage tank.

After filtering out all the soap, the biodiesel is ready to use.

No water, no emulsions, saved methanol. I like this method.

You can use the same still to recover methanol from glycerol. I don't use a harbor freight pump, I use a Grundfoss home heating water circulator which tolerates biodiesel processing well.

Hi ALAY

I guessed at the length, using other peoples' condensers as a rough guide.

The size will depend on how much heat you are adding to the tank, and how much heat you can remove with the water jacket.

I'd say the design has a wide band of use, certainly with 3kW of heat power, the outflowing methanol is cold with a moderate flow of water in the jacket.

It's OK for batches up to 150 litres and 5kW heating, I'd estimate. Maybe more. It's certainly OK for smaller batches and less power.

Hi Graham,

Thanks, I think I'm going to add an extra foot to your design. I may have 200 litter batches heated with 5500 watt element. This should give me plenty of cooling ability.

I'm also thinking about tapping into Mcguyver's toggle switch design to switch my 220 to 110 volts. I wanting to apply slow and steady heat to the BD if I go my facts right.

Thanks
ALay

quote:

Originally posted by moelarrycheese:
I used the same design as the OP: 1/2" copper pipe with a 3/4" water jacket. The only difference is I packed the column with copper scouring pads insted of crimping the pipe for better condensation.

I was wondering how hard you packed the pipe with the scouring pads. Did youo pack them in hard or losse??

I am using your design alteration for my condensor, Thanks!

Sean

GL , if you can find it over there switch from propane to MAPP gas , it burns hotter and works better for no lead solder . I have a Turbo Torch and a "B" tank for soldering , it is an Acetylene /Air torch . Dan

Here is a question for all of you...

Can the "plumbers delight" design be used to increase the mixing of methoxide and oil to speed up the reaction process??

Idea... Put a 3 or 4 foot section on the output side of the mixing pump and before the mix is splashed back into the tank. Since the idea is to promote maximum mixing wouldn't increasing the turbulance accomplish that nicely?

Hi Bill C2,

You would not need the outer water jacket that GL uses in the plumbers delight, just the inner crimped tube.

I believe that using copper in contact with your BD mixture is a no-no... decreases oxidative stability of the fuel. In the case of the plumber's delight the copper is contacting the methanol vapor, not the fuel itself.

We have a static pipe mixer on one of our processors, we bought it from 1-800-STATICS in the US. Works just like you described above, but it is ready-made out of plastic baffles with 1" MPT threads on each end.
Regards,
Farmer

Thanks GL, we just put our plumber's delight into service last week to recover methanol from a batch of biodiesel. Very very nice, and simple to build!

I ran a clear flexible plastic hose from the outlet of the condensor to a fitting threaded into the top of an HDPE carbouy. The vent hole of the carbouy has a plastic tube attached to it, which then runs into a bucket of water.

When the water bubbles I know I am driving off gas from the still. I can also watch the trickle of alcohol glubbing down the outlet tube into the carbouy... pretty exciting!

Questions:

Do methanol vapors dissolve in water?
I imagine that the air coming out of my vent tube will have some stray methanol vapors. Should I run this outside and then into a bucket of H20...

Is the hydrometer that I have for beer also the right scale for methanol?

My thermostat on the 240 volt heating element only goes up to 170F, so I was not able to drive off all of the fuel. Would it be rediculously unsafe to temporarily bypass the thermostat with a wire nut?

Do I need special control of the heating element beyond my on-off switch?

Thanks a million,

Farmer

Is the plumbers' delight a reflux condensor? In other threads folks talk about a reflux column being the way to get greater purity in recovered methanol.

Thanks,
farmer