I have been holding off bringing up this next comment until I had more time to test it. I cannot wait any longer.

Think of glycerin as a methanol transfer fluid.

Pretreat you oil with the raw glycerin from your last batch.

Take the glycerin that you used to pretreat you oil and add it back to your raw biodiesel.
It will soak up the methanol in the biodiesel.
You end up with demethanoled biodiesel.
Then all that is left is recirculating the biodiesel to get the soap to clump up so that it can be scouped out.
A quick pass through a couple of 1 micron sock filters gets you down to less than 50ppm soap when using NaOH.

Vegetable oil likes the methanol more than the glycerin does.

Glycerin likes the methanol more than the biodiesel does.

Use the vegetable oil to strip the methanol out of the glycerin. Then use the demethanoled glycerin to strip the methanol out of the biodiesel.

This just keeps getting easier and easier.

I think this is the next natural progression from the GL1 process. The wonderful thing about the open source model is the speed that the innovations occur. GL1 is great. It is a wonderful improvment over water wash. The only way we knew to remove the methanol was to vent it ( ) or distill it (complicated). Now we have found a simple way to reclaim the methanol from the glycerin and a new way to reclaim the methanol from the biodiesel.

-Jim

Thanks, I added this thread to my favorites.

Great info ! ! !

I will try this on my next batch (45gal.)

Jim.

Will this work if I do the GL1 "pre wash"? Of does the glycerine need to be as water free as possible.

quote:

Pretreat your oil with the raw glycerin from your last batch

Hi Jim

Presumably the WVO should be completely dry first?

Good comments/questions.

Yes, the WVO needs to be completely dry.

No, don't use the 5% prewash with this method.

-Jim

Jim,

Interesting idea. Another person I know is experimenting slightly differently, but same idea.

One question... How do you know this statement to be true?

quote:

Vegetable oil likes the methanol more than the glycerin does.

I am under the impression that it is the other way around. I kind of thought that methanol and glycerine are very soluble in each other. This is why we can do 3/27 on unwashed fuel. Clearly oil is not very soluble in methanol, hence the 3/27 test. So, this at least seems to need some clarification. Could be wrong though...

Even so, some methanol would dissolve in the the oil. Question is, how much of the remaining methanol would dissolve in the oil?

Do you have some tests?

Doesn't mean your method is no good. It might not work quite as well, or in the way you are describing.

quote:

So, this at least seems to need some clarification. Could be wrong though...

I over-simplified to get the idea across. The methanol in the glycerin likes to react with WVO in the presence of lye catalyst. The methanol reacts with the WVO like this is a base/base reaction. The normal base/base is 80% for the first base then 20% for the second base. It is kind of the other way around in this case. And the 20% just happens to be the glycerin from the last batch.

quote:

It might not work quite as well, or in the way you are describing.

Like I said, it still needs more testing, but I know what I saw and it is exciting! Give it a shot.

Titrate your oil and then heat to 130 deg F or so.
Take the glycerol from you last batch (hopefully fresh with methanol left in it) and add it to a new batch of dry oil.
Recirculate for an hour or so, then shut off the pump.
Wait an hour or overnight then drain off what has dropped. Just keep in mind that cold glycerin from a NaOH process with no methanol in it LOVES to go solid.
Restart the pump and then add your methoxide.
Process as normal.

There is still room for discussion on how much methoxide to use in the main reaction. By calculations for a normal batch:
40 gallon of oil (151 liters) at 2mL NaOH titration
8 gallons of methanol
1057g of NaOH

I put in 8 gallons of raw glycerol into the 40 gallons listed above. After reacting I drained off 6 gallons of glycerin. In other words, I reclaimed at least 2 gallons of methanol. (Remember, more glycerin is generated by the treatment.) Keep this 6 gallons in mind. I will talk about it a bit later.

I can put in 6 gallons of methanol with about 800 grams of NaOH dissolved in it for the main reaction. I'll do the 3/27 to see how it does. Or I can put in the full 8 gallons of methanol plus 1057g of NaOH. Or I can do something in between. Any suggestions?

Back to the 6 gallons of glycerin/glycerol that has almost no methanol left in it. I need to pull a sample of it to do the Ohaus test on and then pour the rest into my last batch of soapy, methanol containing biodiesel that it patiently waiting in a cone bottom tank. I'm going to recirculate it for a while, let it settle, drain it off, and pull a sample to do the Ohaus test on.

Ohaus test - Weigh, boil off any remaining methanol and water, and then reweigh. Keep track of what temperatures the boiling occurs to gustimate what was boiled off.

This will allow me to check to make sure that the glycerin picked up methanol from the biodiesel.

I have done this and saw it worked, but I have not done this and took samples. Silly me, I had to see it work first before I was willing to do all of the additional testing.

-Jim

Jim,

I agree that this is an interesting line of testing. I love it when people have ideas and test them. Way to go!

I don't want to sound like I am trying to discourage you, but it looks like you are making some assumptions, and I am not so sure that all of them are exactly right.

quote:

I put in 8 gallons of raw glycerol into the 40 gallons listed above. After reacting I drained off 6 gallons of glycerin. In other words, I reclaimed at least 2 gallons of methanol. (Remember, more glycerin is generated by the treatment.) Keep this 6 gallons in mind. I will talk about it a bit later.

I can put in 6 gallons of methanol with about 800 grams of NaOH dissolved in it for the main reaction. I'll do the 3/27 to see how it does. Or I can put in the full 8 gallons of methanol plus 1057g of NaOH. Or I can do something in between. Any suggestions?

Assumptions you seem to make...

It appears that you assume that only methanol and glycerine are in the byproduct layer you are adding. There is also soap. When you loose 2 gallons of volume some of that could be due to the solubility of soap and glycerine in your oil, along with the methanol.

You seem to assume that the only wt. the byproduct layer cold loose is methanol. When you do the ohaus test, some water is being removed as well. Some water is produced in the soap making reaction, no?

You seem to assume that this process actually produces some BD. Has this been shown to be true? It is possible that you are making MG and DG from the FFA reacting with the glycerine, no? I say possible. It is also possible that no BD is made due to the high level of glycerine compared to methanol.

To me, the real question is can you get BD the same degree of reacted with this technique using less methanol and or catalyst. If so, then it is useful. So, you ask for suggestions:

Try using 20% less methanol than usual (leave everything else the same - temp., run time, etc.) and test to see if the fuel is getting to a similar point of reacted.

Let us know what you find.

quote:

Originally posted by Andrew Morris:

Assumptions you seem to make...
There is also soap. When you loose 2 gallons of volume some of that could be due to the solubility of soap and glycerine in your oil, along with the methanol.

Excellent point. The water byproduct from the earlier reaction could be reacting with the oil and the excess catalyst to actually form more soap.

quote:

You seem to assume that the only wt. the byproduct layer cold loose is methanol. When you do the ohaus test, some water is being removed as well. Some water is produced in the soap making reaction, no?

Absolutely, that is why I said to use a thermometer and try to see where the boiling is occuring.

quote:

You seem to assume that this process actually produces some BD. Has this been shown to be true? It is possible that you are making MG and DG from the FFA reacting with the glycerine, no? I say possible.

Hummmm...FFA (being an Acid) reversing the process and producing MG & DG. Boy, that is an ugly proposition!

quote:

To me, the real question is can you get BD the same degree of reacted with this technique using less methanol and or catalyst. If so, then it is useful.

True, but that is being done by several others and seems to have been tested already.

The real new twist I was trying to point out was using the demethanoled glycerin to pull the methanol out of the raw biodiesel.

quote:

Try using 20% less methanol than usual (leave everything else the same - temp., run time, etc.) and test to see if the fuel is getting to a similar point of reacted.

That would be the 6 gallons of methanol and 800g of NaOH.

-Jim

Hi Andrew,

Do some tests and give it a try.

I know you like to see the clear, not cloudy 3/27 test at 67F.

I have asked many about this and no one has the answers why it works so well.

Notice how silent all the rocket scientists are ?

Thanks, Steve

Look at who has posted in this thread.

They are the people on this forum truely interested in homebrewing ! ! !

Not very many is it ?

Andrew, we are the ones that have to take the ball and run on this one !

quote:

Look at who has posted in this thread.

They are the people on this forum truely interested in homebrewing ! ! !

Not very many is it !

HEY NOW! The threads not even 24hrs old...I just saw it...

But I have no shortage of demeth'ed glycerin that I could experiment with...when I get up and running again come spring...

I just need to figure out how to do efficient fluid transfers with my particular preferred arrangement...

Hi interested Ryan P ,

I have only tried it with methanol in the glycerin.

girl mark reported glycerin without methanol also lowered FFA level. I have not tried it.

I have also not tried it with pump mixing, only the CPP.

I find it very interesting !

Thanks, Steve

Jim,

quote:

Hummmm...FFA (being an Acid) reversing the process and producing MG & DG. Boy, that is an ugly proposition!

I am not sure that would be a bad thing. If you are not going to run a acid stage, having FFA go to MG or DG would actually be a benefit in terms of yield and reduced soap.

quote:

True, but that is being done by several others and seems to have been tested already.

Which tests show the improvement, other than lowered titration #?

quote:

The real new twist I was trying to point out was using the demethanoled glycerin to pull the methanol out of the raw biodiesel.

Yes, that part is the idea the the other person I mentioned is working on. He posted about it, But I did not save his post.

Also, this relies (again) on the assumption that this will really be a good way to demethanol the glycerine. Also, then it will introduce whatever other impurities from your WVO into your BD, no?

Just thoughts.

Hi Andrew,

Not even neutral would try to answer questions about this ! ! !
Tilly , producer, silent !

Thanks, Steve

Nobody mentioned that there is also quite a bit of biodiesel bound up in the crude glyc. Maybe this accounts for some of the lost glyc volume after mixing with WVO; it would dissolve in this in preference to glyc (maybe?)
As for the reaction, one might expect ffa to latch onto the caustic to make soap if there's any water about, or MG, DG if not. In reality, a bit of both.

quote:

P.S. I may have edited this post to make myself appear less dumb and or less crazy

Nope, hasn't worked.

Good concept, Jim D, I hope it proves to be valuable.

Steve, if you were washed up on a desert island, you'd run around congratulating yourself that you got there first.

quote:

Originally posted by Paulus:

quote:

P.S. I may have edited this post to make myself appear less dumb and or less crazy

Nope, hasn't worked.

Good concept, Jim D, I hope it proves to be valuable.

Steve, if you were washed up on a desert island, you'd run around congratulating yourself that you got there first.

LOL.

quote:

Originally posted by J.B. Jagworth:
Nobody mentioned that there is also quite a bit of biodiesel bound up in the crude glyc. Maybe this accounts for some of the lost glyc volume after mixing with WVO; it would dissolve in this in preference to glyc (maybe?)

It was mentioned in a different thread. We chalked it up to the cosolvent effect of the methanol. Once the methanol was gone the biodiesel settled out of he glycerin more freely.

-Jim