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Condensor from car OR plumbers delight
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posted
Hey guys,
i have many car condensors readily available to me.

what wuld me more efficient? the condensor form the car or Graham Lamings Plumbers delight home made condensor.

OR if anybody has any other suggestions?
i would like to try and recover as much methanol as possible.

thanks in advance,
Mubs
 
Location: Preston, UK | Registered: July 14, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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are they made of brass? if they are then use them. you'll also want the electric fan as well.

I use a coil setup from the frige unit for my condense.

-dkenny


'84 bluebird school bus, DD8.2L turbo( 4/2011, the bus tranny has died..Frown 8.23.11 bus driven to scrap yard Frown )
2006 Jeep Liberty CRD Smile - the wife's
99 dodge 2500 5.9l 24v..-mine Smile
everything run B100 when its warm enough Smile
 
Location: RTP, North Carolina | Registered: December 15, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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hi there sorry i have no idea what your talking about.
i am only familiar with the simple condensors used in schools and the principle by which they work
 
Location: Preston, UK | Registered: July 14, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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if were thinking along the same lines..some used to cool a car..radiator or the Air conditioning(AC) system..both will work. I would lean towards the AC condenser.

Mine has 3/8" copper tubing and aluminum fins.

don't you just love the English language..the only place where 2 people speaking the same language don't understand each other..Smile

-dkenny


'84 bluebird school bus, DD8.2L turbo( 4/2011, the bus tranny has died..Frown 8.23.11 bus driven to scrap yard Frown )
2006 Jeep Liberty CRD Smile - the wife's
99 dodge 2500 5.9l 24v..-mine Smile
everything run B100 when its warm enough Smile
 
Location: RTP, North Carolina | Registered: December 15, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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yeah i can get a hold of both.
but why would i need a fan to make it work?

i have is there any diagrams that could explain to me how it would work?

thanks
 
Location: Preston, UK | Registered: July 14, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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as the hot vapors go there the condenser it'll get warm. the fan keeps it cool so the vapors condense.

the vapos should be feed into the top of the condeser. liquid flows out the bottom.

-dkenny


'84 bluebird school bus, DD8.2L turbo( 4/2011, the bus tranny has died..Frown 8.23.11 bus driven to scrap yard Frown )
2006 Jeep Liberty CRD Smile - the wife's
99 dodge 2500 5.9l 24v..-mine Smile
everything run B100 when its warm enough Smile
 
Location: RTP, North Carolina | Registered: December 15, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post



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Oh i see.
so cold water isnt required?

you meerly pipe your methanol vapours in and out comes methanol gas
 
Location: Preston, UK | Registered: July 14, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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nope...none..makes the setup simpler.

just remember to plug the fan in.

Ideally you'll need to figure out a means to control the temp to the top of the column( this if the point before it makes a down turn to the condenser. this temp should be around 152-154F for the best purity..higher temps will distill faster but purity will suffer. a thermostat doesn't control the temps close enough. I use a PID and a thermal couple.


-dkenny


'84 bluebird school bus, DD8.2L turbo( 4/2011, the bus tranny has died..Frown 8.23.11 bus driven to scrap yard Frown )
2006 Jeep Liberty CRD Smile - the wife's
99 dodge 2500 5.9l 24v..-mine Smile
everything run B100 when its warm enough Smile
 
Location: RTP, North Carolina | Registered: December 15, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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hi mate,
i have no idea what your talking about lol. your going to step it down a notch.
why do i even need a fan? hehe

i have only seen a picture of a car condensor (google images) and assumed that it worked by increasing the surface are of the substance so that heat is lost more rapidly.

is that what the fan is for? to cool the temperature around the condensor? wouldnt it be just more efficient to run cold water around the condensor. maybe in a counter current mechanism to maintain a higher heat gradient?
 
Location: Preston, UK | Registered: July 14, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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the fan serves the same purpose as a fan in a car radiator! if you're still think the AC side..well if you want more cold air..yep you turn the fan up..

stop and think a second..
1. your heating glycerin with X amount of heat. in the US its most likely a 4500W element..
2. methanol then boils out the glycerin
3. what remove the heat of vaporization( methanol converted from liquid into gas) back into liquid.

RIGHT ON..the condenser..
might be air cooled..the purpose of the fan
might be liquid cooled.. the purpose of cold water..
sure water is more efficient..but car condensers are air cooled based! why reinvent?
feed the hot vapor into the top blow air across the coils and watch the methanol liquid pour out the bottom.

-dkenny


'84 bluebird school bus, DD8.2L turbo( 4/2011, the bus tranny has died..Frown 8.23.11 bus driven to scrap yard Frown )
2006 Jeep Liberty CRD Smile - the wife's
99 dodge 2500 5.9l 24v..-mine Smile
everything run B100 when its warm enough Smile
 
Location: RTP, North Carolina | Registered: December 15, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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ooh i see. so will the fan come as part of the condensor (im just ripping the whole thing out of a scrap car (or a friend is lol)
but i still think (with the wealth of my inexperience Big Grin) that water will still be more efficient. just have a read of my idea:

stick some see through plastic together into a compact cuboid around the condensor
run a stream of water from the bottom to the top (we might have problems here because the water pressure will decrease dramatically as the volume of the vessel increases so the flow of water will slow for the duration of the condensor area)

at the same time run methanol(g) down the condensor. (counter current mechanism)

what do you guys think?
 
Location: Preston, UK | Registered: July 14, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Location: Preston, UK | Registered: July 14, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post



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Hi,
This is what you're after.

It has a 12v fan attached. It's from a minivan, I think. This is what I'm planning to use when I figure this out.
HTH,
Brian


1996 K2500 4x4 6.5TD
 
Location: Southern Indiana USA | Registered: June 20, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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thanks for that.
so whats going to be more efficient?
the a/c condensor with a fan, a/c condensor around water. or the plumbers delight.
is there another condensor that will do the job better?

thanks,
Mubs
 
Location: Preston, UK | Registered: July 14, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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depends on how you define efficient in this case.

air cooled.
use an on hand radiator and electric fan.

water cooled
build some fancy counter flow water container and use a radiator..more work in the building
need -> a water source, a pump, and a way to cool the water source(depending on how big a water source)

plumber delight
water source, pump..time to make

now for the tough question?
are you think efficiency in terms of methanol purity? if you are then NONE of the answers above make a difference..why...the easiest way to control purity is using a reflux column and a temperature control device at the top of this column. a PID works much better here than a thermostat. PID - for this think closely computer controlled temperature..we really don't need all the fancy stuff in a PID.

-dkenny


'84 bluebird school bus, DD8.2L turbo( 4/2011, the bus tranny has died..Frown 8.23.11 bus driven to scrap yard Frown )
2006 Jeep Liberty CRD Smile - the wife's
99 dodge 2500 5.9l 24v..-mine Smile
everything run B100 when its warm enough Smile
 
Location: RTP, North Carolina | Registered: December 15, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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hi mate,
i didnt know purity was effected.
i was talking efficiency all of this time in terms of VOLUME of methanol collected.

so how is purity affected then?
does some of the water vapour in the air become condensed and dilute the methanol?

a reflux unit would require the water supply to be switched on thorughout the duration of the esterification process right?

which would cost allot more water no?
where does the reflux column go? is it above the vent?


in college we were taught that refluxing uses the same condensor but in the upright position.
but in the GL processor the condensor already is in the upright position :S
doesnt that technically make it a reflux?

if you can explain to me what a PID is, does, and where i can get one from i would very much appreciate it,
never heard of it before,

regards,
Mubs
 
Location: Preston, UK | Registered: July 14, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
i didnt know purity was effected.
i was talking efficiency all of this time in terms of VOLUME of methanol collected.

both will collect volumes of methanol the rate will change..which is faster? depends on how much heat the condenser can remove..

so how is purity affected then?
does some of the water vapour in the air become condensed and dilute the methanol?
exactly if you're planning on using the methanol for making more biodiesel you'll want 95% or higher. if you're planning on using it for 27/3 testing you'll want 99% or higher..the purity demand also change the rate of recovery!

a reflux unit would require the water supply to be switched on thorughout the duration of the esterification process right?
no..this doesn't run during the esterification and doesn't require water

which would cost allot more water no?
where does the reflux column go? is it above the vent?
water can we reused but you'll need enough on hand to keep the temps done. otherwise the condenser doesn't work well.

in college we were taught that refluxing uses the same condensor but in the upright position.
but in the GL processor the condensor already is in the upright position :S
doesnt that technically make it a reflux? you could use a small radiator for reflux column..but this where the setup get tricky-> take too much heat out of the reflux column. then no output. don't take enough heat out the purity will be too low.

reflux - is vertical but allows the condensate to return to the pot. the condenser allow the condensate to run out into a storage container( not the pot)

if you can explain to me what a PID is, does, and where i can get one from i would very much appreciate it,
never heard of it before,


Programmable, integral, derivative controller - I bought mine on Ebay. you'll also need the thermal couple. or said another way-> a fancy electronic thermastat with +-1 degree controll.


so
the methanol boils out of the pot..
up a pipe into the reflux column..some condenses and flow back in to the pot.
some the vapor makes it out of the top of the reflux column and flows down into a condenser where is condensed back into liquid
then into a storage container.

-dkenny


'84 bluebird school bus, DD8.2L turbo( 4/2011, the bus tranny has died..Frown 8.23.11 bus driven to scrap yard Frown )
2006 Jeep Liberty CRD Smile - the wife's
99 dodge 2500 5.9l 24v..-mine Smile
everything run B100 when its warm enough Smile
 
Location: RTP, North Carolina | Registered: December 15, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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"a reflux unit would require the water supply to be switched on thorughout the duration of the esterification process right?
no..this doesn't run during the esterification and doesn't require water"

hi mate if refluxing doesnt require water does that mean i have to use a condensor from a car + fan?
if not during the esterification then when?
isnt that the time we want the methanol to NOT vaporise?



"take too much heat out of the reflux column. then no output. don't take enough heat out the purity will be too low."

dont queit understand what you mean here.



and the pid? you said it controls temperature in the reflux comun right?
how do i hook it up to the refluxer and how does it work?


thanks for your help thus far,
mubs
 
Location: Preston, UK | Registered: July 14, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post



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during esterification, making biodiesel, the temperature normally kept below the boiling point of methanol. so the reflux column is doing anything anyway.

getting the reflux operation is a balancing act.
take my column, for example, its a 5 foot tall 2 inch diameter copper pipe with stainless steel wool loosely packed in inside. this pipe is mounted vertically with vapors entering the bottom.
now lets put for context
->"take too much heat out of the reflux column. then no output. "
imagine the bottom at 200F but I cool the column too much..so much so the upper end is at 100F. at 148.4F methanol boils, there at temps less than this its a liquid..200F vapor enters the bottom..as it gets to the top its converted back into a liquid..thereby flowing back down the column..NO OUTPUT

now for this one
->"don't take enough heat out the purity will be too low."
the problem here is the water if the glycerin mix..
if the temperature at the top of the column goes too high, lets say 215F, you know there will be plenty of water vapor coming out..also methanol vapor will be coming out. purity will suffer

so
we need to control the temperature at the top of the column.
high enough to boil methanol but low enough to keep the water vapor in the column. I run mine around 152F..

-dkenny


'84 bluebird school bus, DD8.2L turbo( 4/2011, the bus tranny has died..Frown 8.23.11 bus driven to scrap yard Frown )
2006 Jeep Liberty CRD Smile - the wife's
99 dodge 2500 5.9l 24v..-mine Smile
everything run B100 when its warm enough Smile
 
Location: RTP, North Carolina | Registered: December 15, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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alright mate almost got it lol

when you say at the top of the column, do you mean the reactor where esterfication is taking place or the refluc column that is condensing the methanol?

quote:
->"don't take enough heat out the purity will be too low."
the problem here is the water if the glycerin mix..
if the temperature at the top of the column goes too high, lets say 215F, you know there will be plenty of water vapor coming out..also methanol vapor will be coming out. purity will suffer


ok so all this means is that there is a mixture of methanol and water vapour coming out.
wont this just go straight into the atmosphere?
once it has escaped the reflux unit its home and dry. so how will it effect purity?
is there another condensor that will pick it up?

also what stage of the process is all of this happening at if it isnt esterfication?
 
Location: Preston, UK | Registered: July 14, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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