I am in the process of building an appleseed reatcor from Graydon's plans and was interested in whether anyone has incorporated methanol recovery into their reactor. I figured all the components to distill the methanol are there with the H2O tank and figured I might as well incorporate them on the first build if possible. Any ideas or advisement would be much appreciated. Thanks! Sean

Have you searched the forum ???

Plumbers Delight Condenser

Chris

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Chris da Pirate,

Hey Sean,
I have a condenser installed on my Appleseed. It's the white tube going down the left side of the processor.

If you look closely you can see a copper tube coming from the top of the hwh and into the condenser. At the bottom of the condenser is a bucket to catch the condensed methanol.

Like you said, the heat source is already there and if you want to circulate with a pump it is also already there.

There are some small provisions you will have to have that aren't necessarily there on a standard AS.

You can't use a vinyl tube for the return line from the pump if you plan to use it to recirculate during methanol recovery.

You will also need a ball valve on the top and bottom of the vinyl site tube. This is handy two different ways, first it prevents failure due to extreme heat during methanol recovery and it allows you to pressurize the tank during acid esterification (if you happen to do that) so you can run the process at much higher temps without boiling the methanol out of the process.

I haven't looked at Graydon's plans but I'm sure they are top notch. I haven't seen Graydon do anything second rate.

I've seen several different designs with pros and cons to each.

Mostly I see way too elaborate lower manifolds. Keep it as short and simple. This turns out to be cheaper also. Don't worry about having the pump down even with the bottom of the tank. The way my tank is I only have to have 11 gallons in the processor for the pump to prime. I'm never going to make a batch smaller than that.

One other consideration, if you’re going to use the processor pump to fill you tank then you will need to have a ball valve to isolate the pump from the site tube. That means the tank and the site tube are connected together and the pump and the "wvo in" line are connected together and there is a ball valve between them. If you’re going to use a separate pump to fill your processor then you don't have to worry about isolating the pump from the site tube.

If you use a Harbor Fright pump you might want to JB weld a 3/4 by 1 inch hex reducer on the inlet and outlet of the pump to prevent leakage later.

This covers all my "should do" things on a processor.


-mcguyver

Thanks for your help I really appreciate it! Sean

Thanks again for the info!
A couple more questions

I assume I can use the vent tube outlet on the reactor for the condensor, maybe with a quick connect?

The plans I have for the reactor call for 1500W 120V element do you think that will be sufficient for methanol recovery as well?

There is also a 30psi pressure vent will this present any problem for recovery?

Thanks!
Sean

Hi 86 Golf, I have a 40 gal Appleseed Reactor with Grahams Plumbers Delight incorpotated. It works good. I just shut mine down after recovering 3liters of 97% methanol. I installed a bypass switch on the lower thermostat. I also use a 1500w 120v element, and it will drive the temp over 200F. Good luck with your project.......Roy

Wow sounds great!

Do you think it would be OK to incorporate on the out vent of the reactor?

What abour psi, the plans I have call for a 30psi pressure valve, how much is generated by the recovery process?

Thanks Again!
Sean

I also have a question here..If u remove the methanol from ur BioD in the appleseed, wont the soap in the biod fall out and make a mess in the bottom of ur reactor tank?

quote:

What abour psi, the plans I have call for a 30psi pressure valve, how much is generated by the recovery process?

Hey 86 Golf,
If you only have 120v handy then a 1500w element would be best suited for your recovery. If you have 220v handy then a 5500w element would be great. You start on 220v to get things warmed up quickly then switch to 110v to run the actual recovery. If you have a decent sized condenser (with little flow resistance) you shouldn't experience more than 1 or 2 psi pressure. I don't get any reading on my pressure gauge and it starts at 5psi.

BigRoy mentioned bypassing the lower thermostat. Just for those who don't know, if you are using a regular hot water heater thermostat to control the heat in the tank, the highest temp you can achieve is around 140F. You have to "bypass" the thermostat with a switch so that you can continue to heat after the thermostat has turned off. Also it prevents you trying to adjust the crude thermostat back to an exacting position to achieve a particular temp.

I have an outside vent but I have never actually used it. The idea of an outside vent is to vent any methanol fumes out of the building. If you have a condenser attached to the side of your Appleseed then any fumes (even if you’re not actively running water through your condenser) will condense into a liquid. I always leave a collection vessel attached to my condenser. Leave a little methanol in the bottom of your collection vessel and have your output from the condenser run all the way down into the methanol. That way any vapors that come out have to bubble through the methanol. You will be absolutely amazed at how often there will be a small flow of methanol from your condenser. Everything you do makes a little methanol come out. I just pour mine back into the batch to keep the methanol levels up.

Tiger744,
You are correct; removing the methanol will make some of the stickiest goo you ever saw drop out of your processor. It's a little slow but it does drain. It's a good idea to have a short plumbing situation from the bottom of your tank to prevent any troubles draining the stuff. It makes wash much much easier also. I have a separate standpipe settling tank which is real handy. I process, drain the glycerin, recover the methanol and then as soon as the BD cools I pump it over to the settling tank. There is always a little goo that drops out before I can pump to the Settling tank. You would not believe what all falls out of the BD once the methanol is removed. I made the settling tank on Legal Eagles advice and I'm glad I did but it's not absolutely necessary.

I know I'm long winded, I don't know how to explain anything quickly. I'm getting real good at typing.


-mcguyver

mcguyver,
I am impressed! That is a top-notch looking setup, and it sounds like a top-notch process too!

The recovery does not make any additional pressure. I have a steel brake line attached to an air blow gun mounted to a brass compression fitting in on of the 3/4 fittings on top of the Appleseed. I have a regulator set very low blowing almost no air in, but it sure makes the methanol flow!!!..........Roy

Tiger, I have just completed my second recovery with the Appleseed, and I don't have any problem with soap in the reactor. But it sure falls out in a hurry when I bubble wash it. I think that it will be ready to dry in the am.

Ok, thanks to all for the great info I am going to make my vent tube outlet from the reactor into a methanoil recovery tube. Currently the plans call for the vent out pipe to be 3/4 black pipe from the hot water out and then over to clear the tank and venbt outisde with poly tubing.

Should I use any other material like copper instead of the black that would help in the recovery or is black pipe sufficient at the outlet and tie in to the copper pipe once it clears the reactor?

Also peope, have said they incorporate air into the meth recovery is this essential and how is it done?

Thanks! Sean

Hi 86 Golf, I made an air device using a air blow gun. I took of the rubber tip exposing the brass fitting that screws into the blow gun. I drilled out the fitting and soldered a 1/4 steel brake line that was about 24" long. I went to Lowes and purchased a brass fitting that was 1/4 npt on one end and 1/4 compression on the other end. I removed the 1/4 compression nut and ferrule and drilled the body of the brass fitting so the 1/4 steel line could pass through it. I cut off the flared end and slipped the steel line with the blow gun attached through the brass fitting. I mounted a 3/4 to 1/4 npt reducer into one of the 3/4 fittings on top of the Appleseed, and then threaded the brass fitting with blow gun into the 3/4 to 1/4 fitting. Using a clamp or pair of visegrip pliers to hold the lever on the blow gun, adjust your air regulator down low so you can just feel air coming out the end. The methanol will be running!!

Hi guy's I'm new to the Bio-d sean and have only made two batches so far,I am interested in making a condensor like your's Mcguyver just how did you make yours? Oh I'm using an appleseed reactor to....

quote:

Hi 86 Golf, I made an air device using a air blow gun. I took of the rubber tip exposing the brass fitting that screws into the blow gun. I drilled out the fitting and soldered a 1/4 steel brake line that was about 24" long. I went to Lowes and purchased a brass fitting that was 1/4 npt on one end and 1/4 compression on the other end. I removed the 1/4 compression nut and ferrule and drilled the body of the brass fitting so the 1/4 steel line could pass through it. I cut off the flared end and slipped the steel line with the blow gun attached through the brass fitting. I mounted a 3/4 to 1/4 npt reducer into one of the 3/4 fittings on top of the Appleseed, and then threaded the brass fitting with blow gun into the 3/4 to 1/4 fitting. Using a clamp or pair of visegrip pliers to hold the lever on the blow gun, adjust your air regulator down low so you can just feel air coming out the end. The methanol will be running!!

Hey bigroy,
I’m curious and was wondering why you are using a blowgun? Wouldn’t a ball valve work and be a little easier to plumb in? I ask because sometimes things aren’t as obvious as they seem. I'm sure there is a reason to use a blow gun I just didn't catch it? I'm slow sometimes.

If I understand you correctly, you add the air at the top of your reactor? Is that right? GL hooked a line up to the top of his processor and said he recovered more methanol than without but he also circulated his BD the whole time.

I haven't done this so I don't know how well it works. I've been adding my air at the bottom. I attach a 1/4 icemaker line to my glycerin drain and inject the air there. That way the air also agitates the BD to help get a complete recovery. I don't like running my pump during recovery because it's just a harbor freight pump and is only rated to pump liquid of 125F or less. I've pump much hotter successfully but I did finally burn up the seal on one pump.


-mcguyver

quote:

Hi guy's I'm new to the Bio-d sean and have only made two batches so far,I am interested in making a condensor like your's Mcguyver just how did you make yours? Oh I'm using an appleseed reactor to....

Hi schoust,
Here is a LINK for how to build a condenser. It's very simple.

I made the air injector using a blow gun for several reasons. One is that I can slide the steel brake line into the BD or pull it out as the ferrul is not completly tightened. The second reason is I use the same blow gun to stir up small pockets of water that form at the bottom of my drying tank. It is pretty handy

I notice you use pretty small copper tubing for the meth recovery out, could I use 1/2 pipe?

Also what function does the ball valve serve?

Thanks!
Sean

quote:

I made the air injector using a blow gun for several reasons. One is that I can slide the steel brake line into the BD or pull it out as the ferrul is not completly tightened. The second reason is I use the same blow gun to stir up small pockets of water that form at the bottom of my drying tank. It is pretty handy

Hey bigroy,
I knew I was missing something. You have made it so you can adjust how deep in the tank the end of your air injector resides.

quote:

I notice you use pretty small copper tubing for the meth recovery out, could I use 1/2 pipe?

Hey 86 Golf,
I'm assuming you’re talking to me. If you’re not, then just don't pay attention to the following.

You could use 1/2 copper tubing but...it is very difficult to bend 1/2 copper tubing into a spiral. It is also considerably more expensive.

I have built a few condensers and I think the best overall is a 4 inch PVC pipe with 3/8 inch soft copper tubing. 3/8 tubing isn't exactly easy to bend but it's doable. The thing to keep in mind is the flow is measured at the smallest opening meaning it doesn't help to have 1/2 tubing if you have a kink in it that reduces it flow rate to the equivalent of a 1/4 tubing.

The only reason for the 4 inch PVC pipe housing is because it's too hard to bend 3/8 tubing into a spiral that will fit in a 3 inch pvc pipe.

quote:

Also what function does the ball valve serve?

When I was asking about the ball valve earlier I was just thinking that it might be easier to use a ball valve to turn the air on and off rather than a blow gun and a clamp but either one will work fine.

On a different note, for those of you that are using a condenser on your Appleseed it is a good idea to put a ball valve between your tank and your condenser. Somewhere down the road you may find the need to be able to build some pressure in your tank (such as in the acid/base method). Sometimes I run my tank at 22psi.


-mcguyver