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Brown Methanol???
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Hello everyone!
I'm a long time reader and this is my first post.(so please be kind).
I just started recovering my methanol. I am using a 42 gallon hot water heater with a thermastat with a 5 degree variance.The steam runs to a automobile heater core cooled by water. I realize this is not the perfect set up, but is all I have right now. My question is: After the initial heat up to about 160 degree I can extract 3-4 gallon of methonal using this system then I must increase the heat to 170 for the next 2-3 gal. I understand form reading your post that each time I turn up the heat the quaility of the methanol goes down. As I get up towards 190 degree I start to get "brown methanol". I supose this is just that polluted with the gyls. So when people talk about recovering 15 to 20 percent of the methanol does that include the low quality also?
Is there some way to squeese all the methanol out at 160 so the quaility does not suffer?

At presant I am keeping the good stuff in one container and the "brown" in another. I want as much of the gylserine removed as possible. I am going to feed it to my cows.

Sorry if I rambel on to much.


Tell me again....Why do I have FOUR jobs??????
 
Registered: June 21, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Brown methanol? Are you doing methanol recovery after you fed the glycerin to the cows? Just kidding!! Big GrinHave you tried feeding glycerin to cows? I've read a little on this subject but I'd be careful. From what I've read there's still methanol present even after heating the glycerine over 200F. I wouldn't think methanol would be good for a ruminant,but I don't have any experience in this area.
 
Location: western new york | Registered: November 19, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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The brown tinge is likely from the glycerin foaming into the condenser. You wont know what you have until you test it's purity. Get yourself a hygrometer or alcohol trelles to test the purity. The colour of the methanol is unimportant, its the purity that counts.
Jon
 
Location: Wellington County, Ontario Canada | Registered: February 07, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Here is the link about using glyserine in cattle feed. I talked to Dr. Kerly who did the study and ask him where or how he got the demethed glys. He said it was puchased from Mexico. So, no help there. I know there has been a lot of discussion as to how to verify if enough methanol has been removed for soap........so I can only imagine what it would take for a cattle feed.


http://munews.missouri.edu/exp...n-cattle-feed-07.php


Tell me again....Why do I have FOUR jobs??????
 
Registered: June 21, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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mofarmer

-as you heat the by-product to higher temps, the methanol causes it to boil and get frothy brown. The brown color will settle out some what, but I’ve used it like that, just mixed it with some new methanol. I found that by not filling the distilling tank too much eliminates this situation.
-as for cattle feed, let me tell you the cows just love the stuff. I have read on another site, just don’t remember where at the moment, that you don’t even have to demeth it. The cows digestive system can handle the methanol. We have 25 head that come to pasture here for the summer. I’ve dumped lots of by-product over the fence, and they lick the ground clean. (not my cows, but none have died so far) Tom


" I don't know what I don't know until I know"
1994 GMC 6.5 Tubo 2005 Dodge ram 3500, 3 VW's 2000, 2002, 2005.
 
Location: Manitoba Canada | Registered: March 24, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I've used a bunch of the brown methanol without any difficulties. I've also gotten some clear glycerin on occasion. It will bubble up into the hose and just sit there bubbling. I unhooked the hose and let it drain on top of the boiler to see if it would evaporate (ie methanol). It did not. The fact that it was clear threw me but I suppose it might get hot enough at my heating element to boil a small amount of glycerin. I used to let it flow into my methanol recovery bucket but now I bleed it off.
 
Location: Asheville, NC | Registered: January 19, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post



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raising a few head of cattle myself, I would never feed glycerine to cattle. Keep in mind I raise organic beef, and my own family eats it as well. Can very well certify organic if you are feeding it glycerine.
 
Registered: May 13, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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hooknline,
Why can't you feed demthed glys.???? Did you read the study? I don't know waht your specs are for "certified organic"???? How about some more info.
mofarmer


Tell me again....Why do I have FOUR jobs??????
 
Registered: June 21, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Interesting thing happen today while finishing a batch of glys. I was heating up for the last little bit of methanol, temp was over 200 maybe as high as 220 and I blew the pressure relief on valve on the heater. Since the vapors could still excape normally,, I am wondering if these new pressure reliefs are desighed to "blow " at a certain temp even if there is no pressure??
Anybody got any info on this one????


Tell me again....Why do I have FOUR jobs??????
 
Registered: June 21, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I read your linked article. Glycerine being mainly glucose would only give the cows energy, and very little else it appears. Now, couple that with the fact that the gly contains some methanol even after recovery, and it contains lye. those are chemical compounds. I only feed my cows on pesticide free pasture, certified pesticide and chemical free grain, and pesticide free alfalfa hay.
To me it doesnt matter that they cows CAN handle the trace chemicals. I dont feed my animals anything Im not willing to put into my own system.
 
Registered: May 13, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I am about as far away from an expert in organic foods as you can be, however after reading THIS article about how its manufactured I think KOH or NaOH could be considered organic? Its basically boiled down potash and lime if I understand correctly.
If the glycerin is sufficiently demethed I think the methanol would be a moot point, but again, what do I know! Razz
Jon
 
Location: Wellington County, Ontario Canada | Registered: February 07, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I understand your point Jon, but ask yourself, would you feed your kids an animal that ate KOH or NAOH on a regular basis, mixed with a little residual methanol? I wouldnt. Now, if there was a way to completely remove the lye somehow...complete removal of the methanol is possible..but not cost effective.
 
Registered: May 13, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post



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Honestly, if I had a few cows I would feed the small amount of demethed byproduct I produce to them and not even worry about it.
I bet a cow picks up more harmful chemicals and whatnot from the dust that settles on the pasture in a days grazing then it would from eating some demethed glycerin from time to time.
But thats just me!
Big Grin
Jon
 
Location: Wellington County, Ontario Canada | Registered: February 07, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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hooknline

-no not to the kids, they only have one stomach Big Grin, Just think of it as sugar coated grass Tom


" I don't know what I don't know until I know"
1994 GMC 6.5 Tubo 2005 Dodge ram 3500, 3 VW's 2000, 2002, 2005.
 
Location: Manitoba Canada | Registered: March 24, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I routinely bring my glycerine upwards of 260F to demeth it, although my condenser tube rises quite a bit before it enters the condensing unit acting somehwat like a reflux still, where the steam partially condenses in the tube and falls back into solution. I've not gotten any glycerine ladden methanol this way (and that is what the brown stuff is).

On feeding glycerol to ruminants :

Biodiesel Glycerol for ruminants University of Ohio
http://hdl.handle.net/1811/25219

Uni of Missouri
http://www.sciencedaily.com/re.../05/070525090245.htm

NC State Uni
From The Pig Site

Australian Study
http://www.regional.org.au/au/gcirc/1/241.htm#P0_0

HTH



** Biodiesel Glycerine Soap - The Guide
- on 5 continents helping people make & sell soap from the Biodiesel Glycerine.


 
Location: :-) Great White North eh ? | Registered: December 10, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Thanks Legal.
I would be interested to see the follow up results to the first 2 studies you linked to. None mention the effects on growth rates or mortality rates long term.
 
Registered: May 13, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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hooknline,
You could always neutralize your catalyst if you are concerned with it before feeding to the cows. This will just form a salt. We consume various salts every day..If you are using NaOH base u can react with HCL and get some yummy NaCl salt.. and boy does that stuff make the worst vegetables taste reasonable Smile
 
Registered: March 02, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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To add to Legals post, we sent samples down to Piedmont for flash point testing of our glycerin to find at what point it would be considered *not* hazardous by PA DEP. We sent samples that were taken to 140, 250, and 260 F in our reactor and only the 260 sample passed. (Sorry, I can't remember nor find for the life of me the temp for the flash point...) Once we started doing that, DEP didn't have an issue with us doing compost. So, hopefully this is helpful in some way!


-Andrew Kamerosky
Dickinson College '10
Environmental Studies and Geology
Biodiesel Intern
 
Location: Carlisle, PA | Registered: December 20, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post



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Originally posted by KamerosA:
To add to Legals post, we sent samples down to Piedmont for flash point testing of our glycerin to find at what point it would be considered *not* hazardous by PA DEP. We sent samples that were taken to 140, 250, and 260 F in our reactor and only the 260 sample passed. (Sorry, I can't remember nor find for the life of me the temp for the flash point...) Once we started doing that, DEP didn't have an issue with us doing compost. So, hopefully this is helpful in some way!


So basically our glycerine should be treated to 260F before its considered ok for other uses?
 
Registered: March 02, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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interesting...260F before DEP considers it safe. How many people actually recover to that temp? I know I dont. All the big time ranchers I have talked to wont even consider feeding it to their animals. These are people having a hard time with the cost of feed rising thru the roof. Is the issue uncertainty or is it lack of definative info on the matter? For me it is the uncertainty...
please keep the info coming!
 
Registered: May 13, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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