Today the US Congress is voting on Cap and Trade.

Question:
How would you like your congressman to vote

Choices:
For Cap and Trade
Against Cap and Trade
undecided

 

Why does it matter what anyone thinks? We vote these people in so they can run our lives. They're called our leaders, aren't they? Since when do leaders need to listen to those who follow them?

If you read the US Constitution they are representatves who are supposed to represent our views...HA!i

Crap and Trade is just another tax scheme. The party in power is planing to spend 625 billion of crap and trade money on heath care.

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Crap and Trade is just another tax scheme.

You got that right... they've got to generate tax revenue somehow. Taxing the industries that use the most fossil fuel seems like as good a method as any.

What do you suggest as a better method for raising the tax revenue that the US consumes?

The last thing industries need now is more taxes. Maybe the government should just stop spending so much money. That's what a sensible person or household does.

What it boils down to is: companies are going to be punished, not with fines but with new taxes, for releasing a chemical into the air which is food for plants. Whether or not it also raises the air temperature a bit (which would be nice here in Wisconsin), it's simply bad timing to impose economic punishment of any kind. A lot of businesses are going to reduce their CO2 emissions by 100% when they close their doors permanently, thanks in part to schemes like this.

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Originally posted by john galt:

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Crap and Trade is just another tax scheme.

You got that right... they've got to generate tax revenue somehow. Taxing the industries that use the most fossil fuel seems like as good a method as any.

What do you suggest as a better method for raising the tax revenue that the US consumes?

Except when you realize that industry does not pay fees and taxes, WE do. Do you really think that industry is not going to pass on the expense to the consumer???

What we are seeing is a great history lesson in progress. I'm sure our grandchildren will be reading this in school books..."Rome and America, How Great Nations Collapse". Do politicians not see how drastically increasing taxes on energy, especially while the economy is so fragile already, will affect everything from your utility bills to food, and medicine? All companies large and small MUST make profits. What will happen to small businesses that see their profits disappear when their utilities and raw goods increase dramatically? They'll have to raise prices, but then they will sell less and become less competitive and finally go out of business. What happens to the companies who must compete with international companies that do not have these high taxes, inflated materials costs, how will they compete globally?

All for what?????? A made up junk science crises that has made Al Gore 700 million with his fake carbon foot print/ so called planting trees business.

We are quickly destroying what was once the greatest country in the history of the world. And we have front row seats. Makes me SICK though!!!

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Except when you realize that industry does not pay fees and taxes, WE do.

Yes it does, look up corporate tax revenues. Lets not play silly semantic games, eh?

My business doesn't release any CO2 emissions. But I'm sure some of my suppliers do so. At any rate, they're sure to find a way to regulate the candle industry or tax my customers for the CO2 emissions from the candles they buy, regardless of whether they burn them or not.

And when the earth naturally cools a bit over the next 10-20 years, the destroyers will be remembered as heroes in the history books they write about themselves.

Atlas Shrugged predicted all of this 55 years ago...

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Originally posted by clean and green:
The last thing industries need now is more taxes. Maybe the government should just stop spending so much money.

Cut spending where?

Here?

GLOBAL military expenditure rose by 4% in 2008 to a record $1.46 trillion, according to a new report by the Stockholm International Peace Research Institute. Israel spends most on defence relative to its population, shelling out over $2,300 a person, over $300 more than America. Small and rich countries, and notably Gulf states, feature prominently by this measure. Saudi Arabia ranks ninth in absolute spending, but sixth by population. China has increased spending by 10% to $85 billion to become the world's second largest spender. But it is still dwarfed by America, whose outlay of $607 billion is higher than that of the next 14 biggest spenders combined.

What do you suggest as a better method for raising the tax revenue that the US consumes?[/QUOTE]

Oh, I forgot to answer your question... I know how we can do it with no increase in taxes. For those of you who think global warming is such a immediate crises to the planet, there is a line on your federal income tax form that you can mark and send in all the extra tax you want. IF there were so many of you then there would be no need to have a tax increase. But I know, you want EVERYONE ELSE to have to pay it, not you. I wonder how much the fat cats in Hollywood pay in voluntary taxes? I wonder how much Al Gore pays in EXTRA taxes or I wonder with all of their money if they hire the best tax accountants to take advantage of every tax break and loop hole there is. Heck not everyone who loves this new socialism tax hike is rich. Let's start a new poll of all the All Gore and Nancy Polosi types we have viewing this forum who do not take qualifying tax breaks and send in extra tax because they feel that it is so important for the government to have more of their money.

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Originally posted by john galt:

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Except when you realize that industry does not pay fees and taxes, WE do.

Yes it does, look up corporate tax revenues. Lets not play silly semantic games, eh?

I know what it is, but are you serious that you don't believe that is built into the ultimate price of goods and services??????

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I know what it is, but are you serious that you don't believe that is built into the ultimate price of goods and services??????

Of course it is built into the ultimate price of goods and services, as is every other cost of production including labor, profit, etc., and I never stated otherwise so don't go guessing what I believe or try to distort the discussion to 'put words in my mouth'. Our personal beliefs are not pertinent to the discussion.

What do you suggest as a better method for obtaining the tax revenue that the US consumes?
"Defense" alone consumes about $2000 per person per year [and who want's to cut that?], add in all the other Federal services, plus interest on the debt and it probably doubles [triples?].

Where is this revenue going to come from, bake sales, charitable donations?

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Originally posted by john galt:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by clean and green:
The last thing industries need now is more taxes. Maybe the government should just stop spending so much money.

Cut spending where?

Here?

I'm sure that is exactly what those who wish us or our allies harm would want.

How about all of the wasteful spending, about the frivolous spending on junk science and pet projects, how about cutting 1/2 million by not taking the presidential plane for a photo op, how about not paying welfare to those that do not need it, or subsidizing ACORN. How about not going to the moon as they are planning, or about spending billions "listening" for extraterestrials? How about not giving BILLIONS to other countries to solve THEIR problems.

And again, I implore anyone who doesn't think they pay enough taxes, there are no laws against living in poverty and sending in more than your fair share.

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How about all of the wasteful spending, about the frivolous spending on junk science and pet projects, how about cutting 1/2 million by not taking the presidential plane for a photo op, how about not paying welfare to those that do not need it, or subsidizing ACORN. How about not going to the moon as they are planning, or about spending billions "listening" for extraterestrials? How about not giving BILLIONS to other countries to solve THEIR problems.

...and what the response from those representatives you elected when you brought your cost-saving suggestions to their attention?

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Originally posted by john galt: Where is this revenue going to come from, bake sales?

That might be a good start. Governments don't produce anything, they get all their money (every last cent) either through taxation or through printing currency. In exchange for their tax payments, citizens of a nation expect certain things from their elected officials. When this fails to happen for an extended period, there tends to be either a revolution, a civil war, a coup, or some other usually violent and 'unexpected' change or overthrow of the government.

That this hasn't happened already in the U.S. is largely a result of the election process which gives people the illusion of choosing new people to replace the rats that got in last time.

The instinct to rebel against tyranny or injustice, (as well as much criminal behavior) doesn't happen until food shortages occur, or another basic need like shelter isn't met for enough people. They will go on a rampage when their kids are hungry, hence the usual need for a militarized police force to quell these 'rebellions'.

It ain't gonna be pretty...

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Originally posted by john galt:

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I know what it is, but are you serious that you don't believe that is built into the ultimate price of goods and services??????

Of course it is built into the ultimate price of goods and services, as is every other cost of production including labor, profit, etc., and I never stated otherwise so don't go guessing what I believe or try to distort the discussion to 'put words in my mouth'. Our personal beliefs are not pertinent to the discussion.

Well you just have to excuse me, I thought when you said that "yes it does" meant that you believe corporations pay taxes. It's really not semantics because if they did away with the corp tax revenue, the cost of the product or service would be cheaper. So ultimately, who then pays the tax, WE do. So if one is proposing to raise corporate tax, then one in essence is raising taxes on individuals. There was a clever politician who discovered this "hidden" tax fund. And people still believe it. *sigh*

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Originally posted by john galt:

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How about all of the wasteful spending, about the frivolous spending on junk science and pet projects, how about cutting 1/2 million by not taking the presidential plane for a photo op, how about not paying welfare to those that do not need it, or subsidizing ACORN. How about not going to the moon as they are planning, or about spending billions "listening" for extraterestrials? How about not giving BILLIONS to other countries to solve THEIR problems.

...and what the response from those representatives you elected when you brought your cost-saving suggestions to their attention?

They hung up on me .... Seriously...

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if they did away with the corp tax revenue, the cost of the product or service would be cheaper.

perhaps, for sure profits would increase ...

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So ultimately, who then pays the tax, WE do. So if one is proposing to raise corporate tax, then one in essence is raising taxes on individuals. There was a clever politician who discovered this "hidden" tax fund.

It's basically a VAT which taxes consumers on the goods and services they consume. Whether it's a sales tax at the till, or hidden in the product cost, does not matter.

It's basically User Pays; a perfect tax system that taxes people on what they consume. Those who consume the most, pay the most taxes; seems fair to me.