DF

This message has been edited. Last edited by: dualfuel,

Thanks dualfuel, that's what I'm looking for as well in a discussion. I get my news / political information from radio mostly (NPR, FSRN, BBC), but I read the local paper and subscribe to The American Prospect. Occasionally I tune into the McGlaughlin Group on television. So I have a "liberal" slant.

I can respect someone prioritizing national security above all other priorities, but I would certainly hope those instincts were based on accurate and true information, and not on basic fear. As Herbert wrote in "Dune", fear is the mind killer, and that is what I see our current administration attempting to feed in this post 9-11 time. If we allow fear to blind and confuse us, we will follow whoever leads. That's why I'm deeply suspicious of Bu$h and company, and have a more than critical bias towards the Republicans right now.

I'm used to getting flamed and criticized for my views, and it has sharpened me and help me reconsider and/or re-affirm my positions. Personally I'm tired of hearing the generalization of "liberal media"; the cliche just brings up images of "ditto-heads". I'd like to stick to the facts, and leave criticisms of the information sources to later in the arguement if "facts" are refuted or mis-stated.

'78 Benz 300D
______\/______
Blue Sun biodiesel

Hey folks, don't forget W's grandfather. Prescott Bush was a financial backer of Hitler, and was managing partner of a company that was charged with trading with the enemy in 1942.

one of many articles

Bill

Back when I was in University I had a lot of time to read and think and test the popular knowledge that had been put in my brain by media and teachers and the like.

I slowly realized that many ideas I had about the world were way off, and I believed that I had been lied to. The problem was, the people doing the lying do not know they are retelling lies. I started with things like the Hindenburg and the danger of hydrogen. No, I found that hydrogen was never the problem, but research led to the fact that the U.S. produced the worlds supply of Helium and would not sell it to the Nazis. I looked at the players of WWII and found that WWII was a settling of scores for WWI. One of the reasons for the Japanese attacking the U.S. was the U.S. cut off supplies of diesel and gasoline. Why did the U.S. do that? The U.S. and Japan were close in the late 1800s training the new Imperial Army- sic the fall of the Samarai.

Japan had a shortage of copper and other metals which led to a conflict with China. The Flying Tigers were Americans flying to help the Chinese against the Japanese in an undelared war. The U.S. seeing a shortage of commodities on the world market due to the war in Europe held back on copper and fuel oil to their long time trading partner Japan. Seeing an end to the British Empire the new rulers were seen as being Germany, Italy and Japan.

Okay here is the link to today. Although one could conspire that Deutsche Bank wanted payback against the U.S. this being the industrial banker families of Germany that lost too much after the war as Germany had to pay the U.S. for reconstruction. One could say that the players, The Bushs, the Bin Ladens and the Germans all know each other. Seeing a split between the Bushs and Bin Ladens, they having their own intelligence use the stock market to take back millions of dollars after 9/11.

OR

Bin Laden angry over the U.S. dependence on Oil takes out his fury on the World Trade Center not because it is the hub of economic U.S. wealth. No, the WTC was world wealth represented by OIL. And who built the World Trade Center?

The grandson of J.D. Rockefeller. Who can be traced back to Prescott Bush and the Germans and Standard Oil. If Bin Laden wanted to hit the symbol of Economic wealth of the world he would have taken out the World Bank in Malaysia. OR for the U.S. economy, take out the NYSE.

Lastly, the most scary thought of all. George Bush and Osama are actually working together. This is why they have not caught him. Can we actually trust the Pakistanis? They put the Taliban in power. What is the main thread that Bin Laden and Bush want????

They wanted the removal of Saddam Hussein.

Well, well, well, the rat comes out of the hole.

your gettin close, checkwww.infowars.com archives, george bush sr and bin laden had an oil venture together as a partnership several yrs ago. and almost everything blown up in the sand countries is rebuilt by a construction company run by one of binladens sons

oops www.infowars.com

Folks,

This thread points up really my only problem with the BioDiesel "movement". We don't need Black Helicopter theories to want to support renewable diesel fuel resources. There are plenty of reasons to want to reduce dependence on Middle Eastern oil without having to resort to Bush bashing. Frankly, the movement loses a lot of credibility when it veers off into this direction.
If we are fighting for oil, wouldn't we have invaded Venezuela or Mexico? Much easier, more defensible supply lines, etc. You can agree or disagree on whether we should be in Iraq ( I happen to agree), but it puts people off who are easily converted to the BD cause when the discussion veers off into this direction.
It's a free country, and everyone is free to hate whomever they wish, but I have pulled out of forums in the past because it degenerated into Bush hating, which is not constructive for promoting BioDiesel use.

- Ted

You are making the point that I made here....

veggie oil anti war thread

almost 2 years ago....This thread is an offshoot of an offshoot of it.

Eric K

OK. I guess at least it's confined to the politics area. I enjoy talking politics as much as anybody, but I think the more the public discussion of BD is mixed with an anti-war message, the less effective it is. I unsubscribed a BD list a while ago because I got sick and tired of my mailbox filling up with Bush hating messages.

We could also stop this supposed war for oil by drilling in ANWAR and producing nuclear reactors, but I'm guessing the same folks are not going to be for those alternatives, so it's more than oil. This war on terrorism, more properly called World War III, is about much more complicated things than getting us oil for our cars.

Having said that, I am a big advocate of doing what we can to drive our cars with renewable resources like BD. It is not a conservative/liberal or pro/anti-peace thing. BD would enhance our security, our economy, and our environment. What's not to like?

i didnt mean to bash bush, i just pointed out a former business partner. he is just in office now, the problems started way before him. i doubt his opponents tour bus runs on veggie,either.it probably started around 1913, when the federal reserve started printing more money than god meant to exist. every paper currency in history has failed at one time or another. the main thing i was pointing out is i am glad we no longer have to pay big brother, big govt, big oil, big business and warmongers and female enslaving(or not) harem humpin(or not)mideast oil barons just to exercise our freedom of travel in this country. i just feel for the people who still feed them everytime they fill up. i like being the only one who directly cash profits from my driving. i can list to you over 100 different places producing and selling 1 gallon of milk generates tax paid to the govt. taxes paid out,disguised as sticker price reflected on the store shelf. that is why a gallon of milk is 10 cents in cuba, and $2.00 here.

dualfuel,

I am 52 years old, so I don't think Iraq is going to be wanting me to liberate them. But I CAN support the people who ARE over there. A couple of points -

The links pointed to above that I went to see are left wing drivel, much akin to some of the right wing drivel that I have been pointed to by other people.

It is impossible to actually be convicted by Congress. And there are scoundrels on both sides of the aisle there, anyway - Ted Kennedy and Robert Byrd to name 2 on the left side of the aisle.

My primary point is that, to be effective in getting "everyman" to buy into BioDiesel and to broaden its usage, which I believe is one thing we can agree on, turning it into a "War for Oil" type of argument will immediately move people out of the discussion. There are plenty of apolitical reasons for wanting to promote BD. Every time I have someone give the "then we wouldn't have to go fight wars for oil", my eyes roll up into my head. Self-reliance, keeping dollars in our country, extended engine life, cleaner environment, are all good reasons that have nothing to do with politics.

And, if you want to broaden this into a viable alternative, you might wish to care whether using this as a big reason for BD is counterproductive.

tstarr
Spoken like a true coward
Do you think that 52 is too old to die for the youth of the planet?
What is the cut off point, in who is too young to die for you?
If not 18, then is it 17?
If not 17, then 16?
If not 16, then 12 or 8 or 4, or 2 or 1 or yet unborn?
They are all dying....in Iraq...for Haliburtan (and You).
But you at 52 will not die for them?
Incidentally

quote:

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the people who are there

---

are...people.
Just like you.
Some are American, others Italian, some Japanese. And wonder of wonders some are Iraqis.
I suppose "they" are "our" enemies.
Let us Th!nk of our differences.
We are bipodal,
ambidexterous,
reverant,
omnivors.
Our blood is identical.
We sing, dance, make music, love, create architecture, teach agriculture, practice poetry, painting and all live for our proginy. Then there are some like you that support war from afar, justify the murder of innocent children, preach hatred, violence, diviceveness.
Looks like we are Starr stuff to me.
Hey Girl Mark
Do you ever wonder if the "political problem" we have is just a gender problem?
tstarr
Talk is cheap. If you want to support the people who are there, get off your a$$ and go to the front.
Nobody is stopping you, but you.
Or better yet, wave a flag and run for office, sign up high school kids as recruits (that means "cooked again" in French} for $500 a head, let them die at 19 so you can live to 53. Tstarr, just go to the front and do for children, what you would have children who have not had the oppotunity to live, do for you.
If you care so much, just go die for one 19 year old so one 19 year old can can live to 52.
DF
Your Bell Housing is not easy to find.
Stardust

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Stardust,

You appear to be a bunch of idiots.

But the original point, and I believe it is clear from this discussion, is that mixing BD discussions with politics alienates people who could help. You folks talk amongst yourselves on this. You're clearly a group of black helicopter anti-war morons. Maybe after you've matured, you can think more clearly.

Well Theodore Starr

You certainly seem to have given us the slip!
You Paint this curious and unlikely band with too broad a brush. There are weapons engineers and systems analysts that post here regularly. We have wart hog pilots and reservists who have been called up and are now serving in Iraq.
I suppose we will never hear from Theodore again. Pitty.
As one who has been in combat, I would have liked to ask tstarr, (who judging by his comments is "pro war"), if he has ever been in combat, or if he has merely prospered from the military industrial complex?
I was wondering how he proposed to support the "people" who are in Iraq.
I was wondering if he meant to support the Americans or the Iraqis.
I was wondering if he is a member of the Grand Oil Party.
I have spent too much of my life near Larkmead Court, driving up and down Seven Locks Road, and River Road and MacArthur Blvd. If you see first hand the self indulgent oppulance that these people dream to be acceptable. What they spend on themselves in a day would save the lives of thousands of children.
If the times were not so desperate, tstarrs faulty logic would be amusing.
He suggests that "we" (I think he meant Dualfuel and Me) mature. He has stated that he is 52. Yet how does he know that I am not an Iraqi? How does he know that I am not an American troop. If either, how will we mature?
We will likely be dead. In the meantime Mr. Starr is selling "Stellar Properties".
He has just happened to settle comfortably in the vortex of the confluence of all the money that flows in the world. If money is your lust, well, Potomac Maryland is the Orgasm That Never Ends. It is where a few feed on everybody. It is the absolsute top for crabs in a basket!
Stardust suggests that when men such as Theodore say that at 52 they are too old to help the "people who are over there", they are either delusional or they seek to delude.
Does anyone remember Mother Theresa before she was 52?
Is there a famous photo of Albert Einstein before he was 52?
Stardust asks herself how anyone can justify the grief of so many innocent lives ending in such indiffference. If the young child pictured below was an American, Americans would call his death an act of terrorism.
But if he is killed by American soldiers, using weapons built and paid for by Americans, lining the pockets of Americans living in Potomac Maryland, buying property from Stellar Investmaents, it is called, "the war on terrorism"
Was this child's death necessary?
If he was your child who would be the terrorists?
Would you think that the people who killed him are your liberators?
These are not rhetorical questions.
Did this child die in vain?
Joe, do you have children? Please, let Jesus, the Prince of Peace be your guide, and say something more than Blessings.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Stardust,

This is the photo that was apparently removed by the forum moderator Shaun
It has everything to do with the topic:
Veggie anti-war movement discussion...

Perhaps Shaun did not remove the photo
I always want to think the best of Shaun.
If it is too much to show the photos of dead children, then let us contemplate the children who survived, whilst losing every living member of their families. This child Ali Ismael asked only one thing of both Geroge Bush and Donald Rumsfeld. He asked, "will you give me your arms". When the photos of this child were shown to the world, the Scotts responded. There was a national outpouring of grief and funds. He was brought to Scotland for rehabilitation. Why not to Washington, or Potomac? He is certainly no terrorist. What terrifies him? Was he in any way responsible for 911?
I think not.
I think we are all
Stardust

quote:

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Originally posted by Stardust:
_Well Theodore Starr _
Stellar Investment Properties, Ltd

---

{Snip - this is not productive...How would you like your contact information slobbered all over the internet?}

quote:

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You certainly seem to have given us the slip!
You Paint this curious and unlikely band with too broad a brush. There are weapons engineers and systems analysts that post here regularly. We have wart hog pilots and reservists who have been called up and are now serving in Iraq.
I suppose we will never hear from Theodore again. Pitty.

---

What does our career have to do with the price of cheeseburgers? I'm an engineer designing giant gas sucking SUV parts for a living....

quote:

---

As one who has been in combat, I would have liked to ask tstarr, (who judging by his comments is "pro war"), if he has ever been in combat, or if he has merely prospered from the military industrial complex?
I was wondering how he proposed to support the "people" who are in Iraq.

---

I'd suggest that the taxes charged to the military industrial complex ought to be able to pay for supporting a whole country...

quote:

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I was wondering if he meant to support the Americans or the Iraqis.
I was wondering if he is a member of the Grand Oil Party.

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I am. My card came in the mail yesterday....What's the point here? All Republicans are evil? If Al Gore had spent a little more cash in Dade county, we'd still be wringing our hands in the UN about what to about 3000 dead Americans in an unprovoked attack, and JC Watts would be kicking his tail in the presidential primary. Probably we'd have had another terrorist attack or two on American soil. Is this your idea of a better answer?

The enemies of the United states hate us, our way of life, our republican FORM (not just the party) of government, and everything about us. They want us dead. Any plan that does not recognize that will result in many of us becoming dead.

quote:

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I have spent too much of my life near Larkmead Court, driving up and down Seven Locks Road, and River Road and MacArthur Blvd. If you see first hand the self indulgent oppulance that these people dream to be acceptable. What they spend on themselves in a day would save the lives of thousands of children.

---

If you want to debate teh value and responsibilities of wealth, go to the vegtherm cheapie clone thread. That's where we (mostly I actually) defend wealth generation and entrepreneurship....

quote:

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If the times were not so desperate, tstarrs faulty logic would be amusing.
He suggests that "we" (I think he meant Dualfuel and Me) mature. He has stated that he is 52. Yet how does he know that I am not an Iraqi? How does he know that I am not an American troop.

---

I'm pretty sure dualfuel is a reservist. I've met his wife and kids. I understand the sacrifices involved. I appreciate them more than he can imagine.

quote:

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If either, how will we mature?
We will likely be dead. In the meantime Mr. Starr is selling "Stellar Properties".
He has just happened to settle comfortably in the vortex of the confluence of all the money that flows in the world. If money is your lust, well, Potomac Maryland is the Orgasm That Never Ends. It is where a few feed on everybody.

---

A few feed on everybody everywhere in the world. That's the way it works....everywhere in the world. The difference in America is that Everybody has the ability to become one of "a few". The Iraqis never had that opportunity until we got rid of Saddam. They were busy being tortured, raped and murdered.

quote:

---

It is the absolsute top for crabs in a basket!
Stardust suggests that when men such as Theodore say that at 52 they are too old to help the "people who are over there", they are either delusional or they seek to delude.
Does anyone remember Mother Theresa _before she was 52?_
Is there a famous photo of Albert Einstein before he was 52?
Stardust asks herself how anyone can justify the grief of so many innocent lives ending in such indiffference.

---

My late wifes Grandmother was a cook in an elementary school in Hungary in late WW2, or some of the little wars after that - I'm not sure... She's told me stories of having to go clean the pieces of the kids she just fed out of the shrubbery after a bombing raid. She's pretty sure they were American bombs. She lives here now, their 50th aniversary of citizenship was a couple years ago. She hasn't told me if she's for or against the Iraqui war, but she IS glad that the Americans liberated Europe, even though it cost the lives of the kids in hte shrubs.

If you want to complain about dying innocent babies, do something about abortion - I'll bet you're all for that kind of baby killing.

quote:

---

If the young child pictured below was an American, Americans would call his death an act of terrorism.
But if he is killed by American soldiers, using weapons built and paid for by Americans, lining the pockets of Americans living in Potomac Maryland, buying property from Stellar Investmaents, it is called, "the war on terrorism"
Was this child's death necessary?
If he was your child who would be the terrorists?

---

The barely armed idiots that killed 3000 people in the worlds most powerful country and got 'em pissed off.

We told Saddam, "If you do this, we won't come kick your a**." he didn't do it. It was his choice to have his country invaded. He doesn't care. The Americans have killed fewer Iraquis than he ever thought of. We arent' perfect. We never will be. We ARE a damn site better than the alternatives. That's how we can have this discussion without getting shot.

quote:

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Would you think that the people who killed him are your liberators?.

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My wifes grandmother did.

quote:

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These are not rhetorical questions.
Did this child die in vain?

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Only if we don't finish the job.

quote:

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Joe, do you have children? Please, let Jesus, the Prince of Peace be your guide, and say something more than Blessings.

---

The Lord bless you and keep you;
The Lord make his face shine upon you and be gracious to you;
The Lord turn his face toward you and give you peace.

numbers 6:24-26

Eric K

I had spaghetti for Dinner tonight

Rev Tilly KE

Ah, now we bring out the politics of envy. I have 2 kids who very well COULD go to the war if they were to volunteer. If they did, I would support them as I support all of our allies.

I guess it isn't possible to keep BD and the loonie left separated. Pity.

werent,like,8 of the 911 terrorists saudi arabian citizens ??? nothing bigger than a cigarette butt has been dropped on them. why must us soldiers go defend private businesses overseas. why were the south african natives able to run out all the whites who were trying to do business there,without bombs in response. if someone doesnt want you in their house, dont you usually leave?? why cant u.s.businessmen,and big oil get the picture. and what ever became of the us military, anyway. hell, iraq is what, half the size of mississippi? knowing they cant take that over makes me feel better. knowing the un and others would play hell overrunning this country if too many of us decide not to 'hail to the chief' any longer. wake up,america. use homebrewed alternate fuels,cut off the funding and terrorists will starve. buying oil just finances problems