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The wisdom of those who wish to rule
http://online.wsj.com/article/...mod=rss_opinion_main
Economics professor Daniel B. Klein and Zogby researcher Zeljka Buturovic recently surveyed nearly 5,000 people who variously self-identified as progressive/very liberal, liberal, moderate, conservative, very conservative, and libertarian. Respondents were asked to answer eight questions about basic economics. Responses were rated not on their adherence to any particular left/right ideological view, but in terms of their knowledge of basic, observable, real-world cause-and-effect. Rather than looking at correct responses, or at responses that could be seen as arguably correct, the researchers focused on the responses that were, as they put it, "flatly unenlightened":

How did the six ideological groups do overall? Here they are, best to worst, with an average number of incorrect responses from 0 to 8: Very conservative, 1.30; Libertarian, 1.38; Conservative, 1.67; Moderate, 3.67; Liberal, 4.69; Progressive/very liberal, 5.26.

Americans in the first three categories do reasonably well. But the left has trouble squaring economic thinking with their political psychology, morals and aesthetics.

Yes, the same left who relentlessly campaign to establish an economic caliphate with them in charge.

This next finding goes a long way towards explaining the current state of affairs in the US:

The survey also asked about party affiliation. Those responding Democratic averaged 4.59 incorrect answers. Republicans averaged 1.61 incorrect, and Libertarians 1.26 incorrect.



 
Location: coldest N.America | Registered: May 03, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Originally posted by john galt:
The wisdom of those who wish to rule
http://online.wsj.com/article/...mod=rss_opinion_main
Economics professor Daniel B. Klein and Zogby researcher Zeljka Buturovic recently surveyed nearly 5,000 people who variously self-identified as progressive/very liberal, liberal, moderate, conservative, very conservative, and libertarian. Respondents were asked to answer eight questions about basic economics. Responses were rated not on their adherence to any particular left/right ideological view, but in terms of their knowledge of basic, observable, real-world cause-and-effect. Rather than looking at correct responses, or at responses that could be seen as arguably correct, the researchers focused on the responses that were, as they put it, "flatly unenlightened":

How did the six ideological groups do overall? Here they are, best to worst, with an average number of incorrect responses from 0 to 8: Very conservative, 1.30; Libertarian, 1.38; Conservative, 1.67; Moderate, 3.67; Liberal, 4.69; Progressive/very liberal, 5.26.

Americans in the first three categories do reasonably well. But the left has trouble squaring economic thinking with their political psychology, morals and aesthetics.

Yes, the same left who relentlessly campaign to establish an economic caliphate with them in charge.

This next finding goes a long way towards explaining the current state of affairs in the US:

The survey also asked about party affiliation. Those responding Democratic averaged 4.59 incorrect answers. Republicans averaged 1.61 incorrect, and Libertarians 1.26 incorrect.



Well maybe but the correct answers are not facts but theories of a particular economic school, lets go through the questions.

1) Mandatory licensing of professional services increases the prices of those services (unenlightened answer: disagree).
OK lets imagine that Doctors don't have to be licensed and anybody can play Doctor. Malpractice suits would skyrocket and the cost of insurance would increase making medical care more expensive. Would it work out cheaper to get a heart transplant by the local handyman instead of the surgeon perhaps it would, if he didn't have any insurance but if he did the insurance company would charge him so much for cover there probably wouldn't be much of a saving, and of course you would be dead.

2) Overall, the standard of living is higher today than it was 30 years ago (unenlightened answer: disagree).

Here again it depends on what you value, if you are talking about entertainment electronics cars etc yes the standard of living is higher.
If however you consider housing, houses now cost more relative to the median wage than in the past.

3) Rent control leads to housing shortages (unenlightened answer: disagree). True if the only supply of housing is the market.

4) A company with the largest market share is a monopoly (unenlightened answer: agree).

If a company has the largest market share with 20% of the market then obviously that is not a monopoly, if however it has 90% of the market then yes it is a monopoly.

5) Third World workers working for American companies overseas are being exploited (unenlightened answer: agree).

How do you define exploitation. Some companies probably do treat their employees like sh** and others would treat their employees well just like anywhere else in the world.

6) Free trade leads to unemployment (unenlightened answer: agree).

Free trade does lead to unemployment, jobs are lost in one place and created in another. The US motor industry is a perfect example of free trade in action.

7) Minimum wage laws raise unemployment (unenlightened answer: disagree).

Look at the real world some countries that have minimum wage laws tend to have low unemployment and those that don't sometimes have high unemployment. Employers are only interested in their business, Governments have to look at the big picture. If workers don't earn enough income to purchase the products in the shops the shops close and so do the factories.


The whole article is propaganda by conservatives trying to discredit liberals, political ideology doesn't have much to do with intelligence and if it did you could just as easily make the argument that most of the really clever people are liberal and most poorly educated people are conservative.

It is not a good road to go down.
 
Location: Nimbin Australia | Registered: December 04, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I think all your further explanation/examples did was demonstrate again that
quote:
the left has trouble squaring economic thinking with their political psychology, morals and aesthetics.
 
Location: Southern WI, USA | Registered: May 18, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by Ryan P.:
I think all your further explanation/examples did was demonstrate again that
quote:
the left has trouble squaring economic thinking with their political psychology, morals and aesthetics.


I think that you guys don't know the difference between left/right politics and conservatives versus liberals.

From the free dictionary


lib·er·al·ism (lbr--lzm, lbr-)
n.
1. The state or quality of being liberal.
2.
a. A political theory founded on the natural goodness of humans and the autonomy of the individual and favoring civil and political liberties, government by law with the consent of the governed, and protection from arbitrary authority.
b. often Liberalism The tenets or policies of a Liberal party.
3. An economic theory in favor of laissez-faire, the free market, and the gold standard.
4. Liberalism
a. A 19th-century Protestant movement that favored free intellectual inquiry, stressed the ethical and humanitarian content of Christianity, and de-emphasized dogmatic theology.
b. A 19th-century Roman Catholic movement that favored political democracy and ecclesiastical reform but was theologically orthodox.


con·ser·va·tive (kn-sûrv-tv)
adj.
1. Favoring traditional views and values; tending to oppose change.
2. Traditional or restrained in style: a conservative dark suit.
3. Moderate; cautious: a conservative estimate.
4.
a. Of or relating to the political philosophy of conservatism.
b. Belonging to a conservative party, group, or movement.
5. Conservative Of or belonging to the Conservative Party in the United Kingdom or the Progressive Conservative Party in Canada.
6. Conservative Of or adhering to Conservative Judaism.
7. Tending to conserve; preservative: the conservative use of natural resources.
n.
1. One favoring traditional views and values.
2. A supporter of political conservatism.
3. Conservative A member or supporter of the Conservative Party in the United Kingdom or the Progressive Conservative Party in Canada.
4. Archaic A preservative agent or principle.

Here is a list of liberals at Wiki on the list you will find people like Aristotle Thomas Jefferson and Adam Smith who was an economist and the father of modern economics but you guys think he couldn't count.

You use the term liberal as an insult, you guys would still be bowing before the Queen if the conservatives had always ruled.
 
Location: Nimbin Australia | Registered: December 04, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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lib·er·tar·i·an (lbr-târ-n)
n.

The word comes from the French libertaire,

sometimes called "anarchists".

*. advocate liberty, especially with regard to thought or conduct.

*. believe in the doctrine of free will (Philosophy)



*. believe in freedom of thought, expression, etc.in Government, Politics & Diplomacy

*. advocate maximizing individual rights and minimizing the role of the state.

*. believe that the only legitimate purpose of a government is to protect the rights of its citizens.

*. believe in minimal, decentralized government.

*. support civil liberties to a greater-than-average degree.

*. When "Libertarian" is capitalized, it generally refers to a member of the Libertarian Party.

Political Orientation:

Because libertarians tend to favor privatization and small government, libertarianism is often thought of as a right-wing movement more in keeping with the Republican Party than the Democratic Party. But changes in the Republican Party over the past 40 years, most notably with respect to social issues such as abortion and gay rights, have essentially marginalized the libertarian movement from both parties.

Basics of the Libertarian Party Platform

Libertarians support eliminating the federal income tax.

Libertarians firmly believe in civil rights legislation. They actively promote freedom of speech, gay rights, and privacy laws.

Libertarians believe in the right for a woman to have an abortion. Less liberal Libertarians don't support abortion personally. However, they don't believe that the federal government should have the right to forbid abortions.

Libertarians propose a free market, with the federal government not enforcing any trade regulations.

Libertarians want many laws taken off the books. These are laws that Libertarians refer to as "victimless crimes". Examples are laws calling the following actions illegal: using drugs, driving without a seatbelt or helmet, and prostitution.

Libertarians are strong supporters of the right to own a gun. Not only that, but Libertarians believe strongly in the right to self-defense, including other means such as pepper spray or other personal defense weapons.

Libertarians support free trade.

Libertarians want all government-funded social programs ended. This includes programs like welfare and federally funded housing. They believe that these programs like welfare and Social Security should become privatized.

Libertarians want a hard currency, backed by gold. They want the budget balanced and the federal government to be fiscally responsible.

Libertarians believe in strategic independence. This means that the Libertarian party doesn't support becoming involved in any wars that aren't purely self-defense and protecting our boundaries.



Notable Libertarians

Galileo Galilei (1564-1642)
John Locke (1632-1704)
Adam Smith (1723-1790)
George Mason (1725-1792)
Patrick Henry (1736-1799)
Thomas Paine (1737-1809)
Thomas Jefferson (1743-1826)
James Madison (1751-1836)
John Stuart Mill (1806-1873)
Henry David Thoreau (1817-1862)
Leo Tolstoy (1828-1910)
Booker T. Washington (1856-1915)
Franz Oppenheimer (1864-1943)
Dr. Maria Montessori (1870-1952)
Bertrand Russell (1872-1970)
H.L. Mencken (1880-1956)
Ludwig Von Mises, 1881-1973
Ayn Rand (1905-1982)
Robert Heinlein (1907-1988)
Milton Friedman, 1912-2006
Hunter S. Thompson (1937-2005)
Frank Zappa (1940-1993)

http://chelm.freeyellow.com/famous_index.html
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/libertarian
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/libertarianism
http://civilliberty.about.com/...cs/g/libertarian.htm
http://hubpages.com/hub/Libertarian-Definition
http://www.yourdictionary.com/libertarian
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarianism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Nolan-chart.svg
http://www.libertarianism.com/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L...Party_(United_States)

This message has been edited. Last edited by: john galt,



 
Location: coldest N.America | Registered: May 03, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Originally posted by john galt:

*. decentralized government.
Oh, the Republicans believe in that too....
A little government in Iraq (why does the most marginalized country in the middle east need one of the largest and most expensive of the US Embassies

A little government in Cuba.

A few military bases in Germany

A few bases in Japan.

Fingers in everyone's pie.
 
Location: Oregon | Registered: October 17, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post



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Libertarians are the more radical liberals and are quite often anarchists, like monarchists are the radical conservatives.

Libertaire translates as liberal not anarchist and liberal comes from the latin liberalis "of freedom". Where was that info from john.


But what do conservatives believe in except maintaining the status quo?
 
Location: Nimbin Australia | Registered: December 04, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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One has to think beyond simple dichotomies to understand libertarian beliefs

the radical extreme liberals are socialists and greens, not libertarian.
Some confuse liberty with liberal .



 
Location: coldest N.America | Registered: May 03, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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But what do conservatives believe in except maintaining the status quo?


Not some official version, but in my experience in the USA pretty much the same as Libertarian minus a few or with a few additions:

*. advocate liberty, especially with regard to thought or conduct.

*. believe in the doctrine of free will (Philosophy)

*. believe in freedom of thought, expression, etc.in Government, Politics & Diplomacy

*. advocate maximizing individual rights and minimizing the role of the state.

*. believe that the only legitimate purpose of a government is to protect the rights of its citizens and wage war .

*. believe in minimal, decentralized government.

*. support civil liberties to a greater-than- average degree.

Political Orientation:

Because conservatives tend to favor privatization and small government, is often thought of as a right-wing movement more in keeping with the Republican Party than the Democratic Party.

Basics of the Conservative Party Platform

Most support eliminating the federal income tax.

Firmly believe in civil rights legislation. They actively promote freedom of speech, gay rights, and privacy laws.

Believe in the right for a woman to have an abortion in very, very limited circumstances. Don't support abortion personally. However, they don't believe that the federal government should have the right to forbid abortions in all other circumstances, the same way the government can forbid any other form of man-slaughter.

Propose a free market, with the federal government not enforcing any trade regulations.

Want many laws taken off the books. These are "victimless crimes". Examples are laws calling the following actions illegal: using drugs, driving without a seatbelt or helmet, and prostitution.

Are strong supporters of the right to own a gun. Not only that, but believe strongly in the right to self-defense, including other means such as pepper spray or other personal defense weapons.

Support free trade.

Want all government-funded social programs ended. This includes programs like welfare and federally funded housing. They believe that these programs like welfare and Social Security should become privatized.

Want a hard currency, backed by gold. They want the budget balanced and the federal government to be fiscally responsible.

Believe in strategic independence. Support becoming involved in any wars that are "self-defense" by any definition and ESPECIALLY protecting our boundaries.
 
Location: Southern WI, USA | Registered: May 18, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Americans?
Everyone appears focused on the United States. Do you realise how many countries are in America?
There are quite a few countries in North America, Central America, and South America.
If talk is going to focus on ONE country, call IT by name.

John Galt, we are both Americans, but from different countries.


David Norwood

2001 F350 7.3 DI purchased new by me and it is the first DI experimented with and talked about on this forum.

Updated 1/2011 Alternative Fuel User Since 2003-vo is always in my fuel. Only one fuel tank. GPI/CIM-TEK spin on filterhead and 10 micron filter. Superchip. Hutch and Harpoon mods 2010. Diesel inline filter between tank and Airtex E2236 fuel pump (rated to 110 psi).Fuel pressure gauge. HOH for fuel line heat from tank to 12v lift pump. Two 12v 36" heaters, one before add on filter and one before OEM filter.

Cool weather mixes updated 2010. 100% vo to 70°. 66% to 35°. 50% to 10°.
 
Location: Upstate South Carolina , USA | Registered: December 28, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Libertarianism can only work in a society with a large population of intelligent, future oriented, personally responsible and environmentally responsible individuals. That's why it can work in countries like Switzerland or New Zealand, but not in N. America.
We would need to go back to emphasis on quality instead of a throw-away culture driven by profits, and
that's why libertarianism can't work in most of today's world.



 
Location: coldest N.America | Registered: May 03, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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*. advocate liberty, especially with regard to thought or conduct.

*. believe in the doctrine of free will (Philosophy)

*. believe in freedom of thought, expression, etc.in Government, Politics & Diplomacy[/quote]



Liberty of thought and conduct would allow people to be communists and drug users.

A liberal would allow a communist his freedom of expression whilst a conservative would fear the conflicting ideology and suppress the communist.

A liberal would allow a person to ruin or end their life in any way they saw fit as long as it didn't harm others. A conservative will always try and suppress any kind of aberrant behavior.

Dn your right I didn't mean to get into a US thing I just didn't like the suggestion that liberals are naturally dumber than conservatives.

It is different over here the conservative party is called the "Liberal Party" but it isn't very liberal.

A senior US journalist recently expressed her thoughts and was sacked/resigned. Where was her freedom of expression, did any prominent conservatives jump to her defense, did anyone defend her?
 
Location: Nimbin Australia | Registered: December 04, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post



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