You are all "Guilty"

Point at the government, the rich, the poor, the democrats or republicans; point at the Jews, the Muslims, Blacks, Mexicans (legal or illegal); point everywhere and at everyone but yourselves.

Somebody had to do this "to" you because it happened to you and it is anybody’s fault but your own.

It was Carter, Reagan, Clinton, Bush and now Obama... or maybe it was all of them for the conspiracy crowd?

So long as it wasn't your own fault?

A pile of lumber is worth roughly $10k, perhaps as much as 30k (fixtures included). Add to this 5k for a patch of dirt and sprinkle lightly with profit.

Your house is worth 40-50k but you paid 100-150k. Actually you didn't pay 150k, you borrowed 150k.

You agreed to pay 6-10% interest for 30 years.

Payments on the order of $1100.00 monthly, paying roughly $100 towards principal and $1000.00 towards profit for someone.

This was all fine with you, at the time.

You were a bit nervous but also exhilarated when you signed the loans and took possession of your castle. Many, if not all, with initial concerns; told themselves, “It’s a lot of money but I’ll be able to sell this (used) place in 5 years for twice what I paid for it.”

Some were so confident in this idea they bought houses they didn’t even need so they could fix them up and resale them for a profit. They even coined a phrase, flip, for their scheme.

You all laughed at Grandpa for driving his 1972 Buick until the wheels fell off. He didn’t really drive it that much per year, but the thing still had a couple of hundred thousand miles accrued on the odometer. He took it to a local shop for regular servicing and had put a transmission in it and maybe even a motor. “Gee Gramps, when ya’gonna trade that junk off for a new car, like mine?”

Your new car made you feel good. It was vindication, validation? I’m an adult, I can afford this, I need this, I deserve this…

Living beyond your means is quite a feat.

At first you needed a better job, more hours, more miles, or just more money. Then, if ever, it wasn’t more money you needed. More money requires success, hard work, determination, a lot of sacrifice, and often an education.

Instead, you quit saving as much as you should and decided to start investing. Saving and investing “ARE NOT” synonymous.

Later you traded in health insurance for either none or else what could be considered catastrophic policies. These don’t cover everything; they instead come with annual deductibles (500-5,000 dollars) but also lower premiums.

Credit cards; a convenience used instead of carrying cash allowed you to consolidate purchases and write only one check at the end of the month.

It turned from consolidating to extending purchasing power rather quickly when Christmas rolled around. Soon you were carrying a balance and before you knew it your limits were extended.

Holes were dug with good intentions of using tax returns to catch yourself back up but then you needed that money for either vacation or some other frivolity.

You kept right on juggling… until something dropped; an illness, a broken leg, a job loss, a down turn in the economy.

Some may have to declare bankruptcy after having lost it all. Many more will have to simply grow up and realize they didn’t really “OWN” very much and were instead only living a very good lie.

“The stock market earns returns of 10% annually over the long term”

Really???

And… where do you suppose this extra 10% pops into existence from????

Trust me here; it really is only a piece of paper. It only has value because you think it does.

If you’ve saved 25k, (actual dollars saved or put into your 401k) and somebody sent you a notice in the mail saying your 25k was now worth 50K or even 75K and you left it sit there thinking and feeling all warm and fuzzy because you had 75k in the bank… well my friend you should have pulled it out of the stock market and put it in the bank.

Then at least your thinking would be correct.

The stock market is and has always been a ponzified pyramid scheme.

For every winner there is a loser. There is no 10% from thin air unless the government starts printing, unaccounted for, money… oh wait, I think they just did that didn’t they?

I’m sorry you’ve been working a few years out of high school and have nothing to show for it. I am even, more sorry, if you’ve been working 25 years out of high school and still have nothing to show for it.

In either event, neither case is my problem.

I find it rather hilarious that the argument is: Don’t give it to the banks, instead, give it to me.

$2,500 or $6,000 or $10,000 per person or 50 million billion zillion to Wallstreet???

None of you have earned anything anymore than Wallstreet has.
Leave my tax money where I put it, with the government. Not for the common good but for the common defense.

Take your lickings, as you’ve earned and actually learn something here.

Get a job and quit buying crap at Walmart, it’s a little late for buyer’s remorse.

If you can’t get a job then make your own, still quit buying crap at Walmart.

Quit banking, borrowing, credit carding into oblivion. Save your damned money and prepare for the future. THE FUTURE THAT YOU ARE MAKING FOR YOURSELF!

I don’t owe you squat, the Federal Reserve doesn’t owe you squat.

I didn’t spend your money and you certainly aren’t going to spend mine.

I didn’t tell you to work for minimum wage or 30 cents per mile or try to convince you that you could keep living like you were making twice as much as you are or that it would all work out in the end.

If you are worried about the economy… you apparently haven’t been taking care of business or life like you should.

Your Problem
Grow up!

IDIOTS

Big LOL. Pretty good. How about sending this letter to the Government as they are the leaders in the scheme. If they would leave us alone and let us spend our own money, we would create the economy. But on a side note, how much would 300 million Americans get with $1,000,000,000,000 to be spread between us? And who are they borrowing the money from anyway? We will pay over $300,000,000,000 in interest back on this pork package. If the Government is borrowing it from the people, do the people get to split the interest when we pay it back. LOL

Don't blame the government, "the people" created this economic mess because they wanted cheap foreign products, and cheap foreign fuel instead of renewable alternatives. It was "the people" who moved their factories and businesses to foreign countries for cheap labor. If "the people" get stuck with the cost of fixing the mess then so be it. What goes around comes around. Maybe now they'll realize that "cheap" isn't really economical after all? Probably not, never underestimate the power of stupidity. The taxes that operate the government are not paid equally by 300 million Americans, not by a long shot, so by what stretch of the imagination should the "stimulus" money be spread equally among them? The small percentage that pay most of the taxes will be getting most of the "stimulus" money. think of it as a rebate.

im6under,

Good to see your still in good form.

Some years ago I predicted the the props would start to be kicked out from under the banking system. No one believed it. Mind you, even I didn't expect them all to be kicked out in one week.
Fortunately, I took my own advise. So no problems here. Pretty glad I did, as I finish my working life in ten month. Hate to be doing that with debts hanging around my neck.

Hope you all get through this without too many scars.

regards

dva

Wow 6, do you ever rant!

How did todays kids cause this mess? How did todays teens cause it?

You rant randomly accusing broadly as if it actually is everyones fault.

You are right that many people share SOME blame, but Allan Greenspan shares MOST. After all, it's not like a bunch of fiscally irresponsible consumers borrowed the money that broke America. The banks lent it to them. If I lend money to a crack head, I'm the idiot, not the crack head.

quote:

If you can’t get a job then make your own, still quit buying crap at Walmart.

Where can I buy American made stuff?

It's too late, most American manufacturers have been forced offshore by their competitors who already went offshore earlier. In an effort to consume more crap at lower prices, average consumers bought cheap imported junk as their neighbours lost factory jobs.

Now the factory is closed.

Where can I buy American made stuff?

quote:

How did todays kids cause this mess? How did todays teens cause it?

They are one of the biggest consumers of imported crap.

I have no problem finding products made in North America to meet my needs. Also there's still quite a bit of good quality N.American products in 2nd hand stores. It's easy if you can think outside the big-box stores.
Admittedly it takes more intelligence than the marketing driven sheeple are capable of mustering. They're gonna loose big time, too bad, no sympathy. They shoulda paid better attention in school.

quote:

I have no problem finding products made in North America to meet my needs.

I can believe that john since North America has three large countries in its composition, not just one. ( Canada, US, and Mexico )

quote:

quote:
How did todays kids cause this mess? How did todays teens cause it?

They are one of the biggest consumers of imported crap.

I have no problem finding products made in North America to meet my needs. Also there's still quite a bit of good quality N.American products in 2nd hand stores. It's easy if you can think outside the big-box stores.
Admittedly it takes more intelligence than the marketing driven sheeple are capable of mustering. They're gonna loose big time, too bad, no sympathy. They shoulda paid better attention in school.

Imported crap? Honda & Toyota drove right over the big 3 because they are higher quality cars & are more fuel efficient.

Kids buy stuff that their parents give them money for. Do you honestly expect children to understand the economic inpact of their consumer spending habits? Get real...

Second hand stores are the ONLY place you can find north American made stuff, because we don't make anything new anymore.

Moderated for personal attack.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Shaun,

quote:

quote:
I have no problem finding products made in North America to meet my needs.


I can believe that john since North America has three large countries in its composition, not just one. ( Canada, US, and Mexico )

Good point DN. I'm sure Mexicans make lots of stuff that used to be made up north...

If we are willing to work for a few meager pesos under horrible working conditions, perhaps some benevolent Mexican industrialists will take pity on our unemployed asses & open up some sweat shops up here...

They'd save a little money on shipping anyway...

quote:

Imported crap? Honda & Toyota drove right over the big 3 because they are higher quality cars & are more fuel efficient.

Like many, the author obviously couldn't understand the important difference between imported crap and imported quality products. That sort of myopia got us into this mess.
I was clearly referring to imported CRAP, that's what was stated.

Moderated for personal attack.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Shaun,

quote:

Originally posted by im6under:

You all laughed at Grandpa for driving his 1972 Buick until the wheels fell off. He didn’t really drive it that much per year, but the thing still had a couple of hundred thousand miles accrued on the odometer. He took it to a local shop for regular servicing and had put a transmission in it and maybe even a motor. “Gee Gramps, when ya’gonna trade that junk off for a new car, like mine?”

IDIOTS

I think you're talking about my great-uncle.
Except... I think it was a 1960 Chevy.

I'm pretty sure he was single-handedly responsible for the end of the Lifetime Warranties on Automobile Batteries.

His workshop was built out of a wrecked train boxcar.
The roof leaked like a sieve... I'm sure he could have fixed it, but rather he had a complex gutter system to route the water into a barrel for use as shop/quenching water.

Several out-building (and maybe even the house itself) was made out of recycled RR Ties.

And the toilet... well, that was out back, sitting over a hole that he dug out with his dozer.

quote:

You are all "Guilty"

Point at the government, the rich, the poor, the democrats or republicans; point at the Jews, the Muslims, Blacks, Mexicans (legal or illegal); point everywhere and at everyone but yourselves.

Yeah, and that goes double for all you hardworking, sensible people out there who made personal sacrifices in your lifestyles to save money & get ahead only to be sucked into a giant economic downturn that was spawned only by other peoples actions!!!

You should have done more to educate the public as to responsible spending practices & helped lobby for government accountability!!!



Gee 6, I guess since you failed to directly attack the innocent, I thought I should help you out there. After all, why be vague in villifying total strangers with a blanket insult when you can specifically blame the innocent along with the guilty?

This is getting to be fun. But I'd like to ask a serious question.

If you were offered a bank loan of, say, $100,000 to buy a house. And the terms of repayment were more that your income, Who's fault would it be when you got thrown out because you couldn't keep up the payments ?
The guy who offered you the money, knowing that you could not afford it, or you for taking it knowing that you couldn't afford it ?

This is a serious question, Serious answers please. You can go back to flaming each other later.

dva

both.... and include the power hungry politicians who realized they could buy the poor vote by bending the regulations to force the banks to make insecure loans.

quote:

Originally posted by dva:
This is getting to be fun. But I'd like to ask a serious question.

If you were offered a bank loan of, say, $100,000 to buy a house. And the terms of repayment were more that your income, Who's fault would it be when you got thrown out because you couldn't keep up the payments ?
The guy who offered you the money, knowing that you could not afford it, or you for taking it knowing that you couldn't afford it ?

dva

If only it was that simple.

If you bought a $50,000 home.
Put 20% down... (owing $40,000 on the house).

And, couldn't make ends meet...
So you go to the lender and convince them that the house value has now gone up to $85,000...
But, then convince the lender to give you a $100,000 loan on that now $85,000 house.

Now... since the loan amount is now 2.5 times as high as earlier... the payments are now much higher.

Remembering, of course, that the new loan was granted because the person couldn't make ends meet on the original $40,000 loan.

But... the goal is never to really pay off the loan... but rather, when the house value goes up again, to take out another loan to pay off the previous two loans.

Unfortunately, if the home values don't go up, and the credit market dries up... and the person has already spent another $20,000 on their credit card at 20% interest expecting to roll it over onto the house...

And, suddenly the person can't pay the any of the home loans, or the maxed-out credit card account.

---------

So, now, who is the stupid one?

The home owner that kept expecting to have the house value go up and up?
Or the bank the kept lending the money to the person when they were obviously not able to make ends meet with the original loan amount?

---------

Also, keep in mind what happens with retirement.
Say you buy a house at 30 yrs old... pay it off 30 years later at 60, and have no house payments, and one can retire.
On the other hand... say if one continuously refinances the house, so the person has absolutely no equity. Has no savings, no retirement plan, and no 401K plan...
How will they ever make ends meet and survive on the pittance from Social Security?

Loans.
Perhaps the biggest issue with loans is failure to stick with a fixed rate. It cannot baloon if no baloon is in the contract.

Imports.
Any item sold in a country that is not generated in that country is an import there.
This is a country issue, not a regional issue.

JG,
re..

quote:

by bending the regulations to force the banks to make insecure loans.

...

Don't you think it is down to the banks to ensure that the loans taken out against them were secure ? I can see that the original villain is the guy that sold the loan knowing they the buyer couldn't keep up the payments. But he probably wasn't going to be around when the smelly hits the fan, so why should he care ? The bank must be aware that they would be saddled with the problem. Selling it on only passes the buck.

Keelec,

Good points, all of them. But, and I really do hate to say this, it does seem to come down to recklessness if not stupidity that so many people simply couldn't see the potential for disaster.
If you were setting off across country in your car, and you had no idea where the gas stations were, I'm sure you would keep the tank pretty full as you came to places where you could fill up. No one with any brain cells working would run on fumes hoping that the next one is maybe around the next corner. But some do.
There was an item on tv last night that showed a guy who had just had to retire due to ageism. He hadn't expected to have to do it and was stuck with a £900 per month mortgage that he couldn't pay. A sad case, but let's look at it. He is 65 years old. Why would he allow himself to be in this position at that age ? He had a good, well payed job. But, It turns out that he had re-mortgaged a couple of times. Hell, he must have knew he would eventually reach 65.

It all goes to show that what John Galt says about taking care of you self and your money is very true. Sit down and do the worst-case sums. And if you can't afford it; forget it.

It really is something that need to be drummed into the younger people that are liable to get sucked in.

Me agreeing with JG, What next

regards
dva

I agree with Welder 100 %.
Im6under: your rantings are, at best irresponsible. I'd recommend you get off the high horse for just a minute, and take a look at reality.
In 2002 I was working as an alarm technician for ADT. As promised by my bosses at the moment they hired me, I was making consistently between $970 and $1100 a week. Then the war against Irak was declared, and within a month I went to get $400 a week at best, working for the same company, doing the same job. I guess that's my fault.
Ever since, I could NEVER get a job for more than $450 a week. They just don't exist anymore. I guess that's also my fault.
Imported crap?
WAKE UP!. Imported merchandise came to the U.S. in the '60s! How did that bankrupt the country in the last few years?
And, as Welder said, have you taken a look at the labels in the "American made" stuff you buy? I did.
Every Saturday and Sunday morning I watch on spike the Edelbrock's ads, and see Vic Edelbrock telling me "all made here, in the U.S.A.".
Well, is it?
Days ago, I was restocking the shelves at work (Advance Auto Parts), when I saw an Edelbrock air breather for the Chevy small block. And in the packaging I could read "made in... TAIWAN!. So I kept digging: Edelbrock "Performer series" valve covers (also for the SBC) made in Taiwan, Edelbrock carburetors, made in China. And the list goes on, and on...
But how about other brands? De Walt? Made in China. Makita? Japan. Porter Cable? China, Mexico, India, you name it. Bosh? Switzerland.
So are THEY guilty for bankrupting the country?
NO!. people open companies to MAKE MONEY, not to help the economy. It's not their responsibility. So if they find they can manufacture cheaper somewhere else, they will go there, because their only other option is to close their doors.
The responsibility of managing the economy falls on the GOVERNMENT, and the reason why the country is now almost bankrupt is because the last government just wasted almost 2 TRILLION dollars on a war halfway across the globe. Is that simple. Look at the history books. War has bankrupted more countries in history than any other factor, ever.

And, just to make things clear, I don't have a mortgage. I don't have a house. Heck, right now, I don't even have a car (working on it).
But when I do buy a car, I'll buy imported.
Why?
Because I want to wreck the economy?
No.
Because American cars are CRAP. pure and simple. Because there's not a single American car that can offer the cost/quality ratio imported cars can.

Where'd you cut and paste this load from, Im6under? I'm sure you didn't write it, why not source it so we know who's really grinding the axe?

quote:

quote:
by bending the regulations to force the banks to make insecure loans.

...

Don't you think it is down to the banks to ensure that the loans taken out against them were secure ? I can see that the original villain is the guy that sold the loan knowing they the buyer couldn't keep up the payments. But he probably wasn't going to be around when the smelly hits the fan, so why should he care ? The bank must be aware that they would be saddled with the problem. Selling it on only passes the buck.

Not in America. Under the Clinton Administration the Community_Reinvestment_Act made regulations which penalized the banks if they didn't grant insecure loans to the poor. The banks quickly bundled these crap loans and passed them up the line into the international banking system. The Bush Administration attempted to repeal the penalties but the Democrat congress thwarted their attempts. When the bottom of the pyramid started to crumble with defaulted loans the whole system came tumbling down. The banking system was working reasonably well with natural checks and balances until the Clintoons phucked with it for their own power hungry desires. It's a perfect example of what happens when politicians meddle with stuff they don't understand.