HCII,

I've read this entire thread the last 2 days and I'm very interested in trying it as our nightly temps are typically mid 20's to low 30's (F scale) at night, but can get much lower for a spell now and again. But 2 questions...

First, I assume the glycerine by-product you use for pre-treatment is the dark coffee or Coke colored stuff, and not any of the gloopy stuff that accumulates at the interface between the dark by-product and the fresh bioD after processing, correct? I use KOH and do a 5% water pre-wash after processing, for what its worth.

Second, my feedstock, largely Canola oil from a fish restaurant that titrates at about 1.8 to 2.1 grams, is "applesauce" in the unheated shop I'm processing in. So I have to heat it with a heater spear to liquify it so I can pump it into the processor. If I warm it to pre-treat with by-product, it will be applesauce again in 24 hours this time of the year. How do I manage to keep it liquid economically so the tallows will settle out over the next 3 or 4 days? Do I need to warm it back to liquid each day with my heater spear? That will stir it up again, which is probably not the right thing to do. Any advice? I do 150 liter batches so moving it into a heated space (house) is not practical.

Great info, by the way.

Thanks,
-Jay

JGK
YES the glyc is the 10 or so gallons that come off after your reaction, glyc + prewash water.
I dont know how to keep your oil warm unless you would heat it to 70 deg f or so and put it in an insulated barrel, but with the top open it will still let the heat out.
I heat my shop with electric baseboard heat, the shop is 30x18 w/10 ft ceilings. We are on remc and the power is 5.5cents a kw so it is an effencint way , i figure it costs me 64 cents a day,(shop is well insulated and i keep a ceiling fan turning real slow).
Jammer

quote:

Originally posted by JGK:
Do I need to warm it back to liquid each day with my heater spear? That will stir it up again, which is probably not the right thing to do. -Jay

No Jay its not the right thing to do.

Don't heat the applesauce... at all.

Simply pour in the glycerol cold and stir then leave for 3 days... you will be amayzed...

quote:

Originally posted by Thebushpig:

Simply pour in the glycerol cold and stir then leave for 3 days... you will be amayzed...

Well, my oil/glycerol mix took longer than 3 days to separate, and I was "amayzed" with the changes, through the whole process, up until the point where I opened the door of the ice box and saw that there were no apparent coldflow benefits for the biodiesel that had been produced. I hope that my next test proves that the first one was a fluke- otherwise, it sure makes me curious why so many others here are reporting major coldflow improvements, when I'm pretty sure I used exactly the same method.

quote:

Originally posted by kumar:

quote:

Originally posted by Thebushpig:

Simply pour in the glycerol cold and stir then leave for 3 days... you will be amayzed...

Well, my oil/glycerol mix took longer than 3 days to separate, and I was "amayzed" with the changes, through the whole process, up until the point where I opened the door of the ice box and saw that there were no apparent coldflow benefits for the biodiesel that had been produced. I hope that my next test proves that the first one was a fluke- otherwise, it sure makes me curious why so many others here are reporting major coldflow improvements, when I'm pretty sure I used exactly the same method.

Although I don't have my testing results yet, I suspect the temperature improvements may vary, depending on the oil and mixture of stuff in it. I would not expect much improvement from my low-titrating pure soy oil -- it already needs to be below 0C for it to cloud.

Kumar-
Ive recently started back at sundance on a volunteer basis a couple of days a week. This is where I used to work and where I came across this idea...

They use it practically all the time to maximise the yeild of good fluid oil over tallow before processing and their cold fuel properties are excellent. The feedstock is continuously variable off the collection rounds, but they still get good results...

The only difference I can see, in your process is I believe you use KOH?
We use NaOH, Not sure about the other guys here that have tried it??
-What do you other guys use for catalyst, KOH/NaOH and how has your success been with the process?
Just a wild stab in the dark--Maybe its got to be NaOH in the original reaction from which you use the glyc/by-product, to pre-treat the oil with.........

quote:

Originally posted by High Compression II:
Kumar-
Ive recently started back at sundance on a volunteer basis a couple of days a week. This is where I used to work and where I came across this idea...

They use it practically all the time to maximise the yeild of good fluid oil over tallow before processing and their cold fuel properties are excellent. The feedstock is continuously variable off the collection rounds, but they still get good results...

The only difference I can see, in your process is I believe you use KOH?
We use NaOH, Not sure about the other guys here that have tried it??
-What do you other guys use for catalyst, KOH/NaOH and how has your success been with the process?
Just a wild stab in the dark--Maybe its got to be NaOH in the original reaction from which you use the glyc/by-product, to pre-treat the oil with.........

Ahh, that may be it! I'll try the next test using NaOH. This theory certainly makes sense on the face of it.

I use KOH.

quote:

If you are making BioDiesel from waste oils, a good trick I came up with a while back involves removing as much of the tallows as possible before making the fuel. (Nothing new there....)

Wasn't there a thread sometime back where the cetane value of light oils vrs tallows was discussed?
I think i remember a comment that if you use only the lightest fraction of WVO, then the cetane value of the resultant biod can be down into the 30s, wheras the tallows cetane value can be in the high 50s or even 60s.
How does this impact SVO users?

I use NaOH pre-treatment with very good results. I usually let mine settle for a week or two before using.

Ian

I have good success with biodiesel byproduct from a KOH process, but then, I am not making biodiesel from it

I tried this some time back when HCII posted this method on the goat forum and I had one batch that after a week seemed to have slightly more clear oil when treated with NaOH glyc by product but it was hard to tell as I never marked or measured it, just judged it by eye, but I tried it again last week on two containers that were half full with good oil and one has gone to almost solid gloop and the other has a reduction in the amount of good oil, all were done cold, so I'm going to experiment with some heat over the w/end and see if anything changes.

Chug

So, just to be crystal clear, has anyone here had repeated successes in significantly reducing the cloudpoint using only glyc. w/KOH and transesterification w/KOH?

quote:

Originally posted by Ridley:

quote:

If you are making BioDiesel from waste oils, a good trick I came up with a while back involves removing as much of the tallows as possible before making the fuel. (Nothing new there....)

Wasn't there a thread sometime back where the cetane value of light oils vrs tallows was discussed?


I think i remember a comment that if you use only the lightest fraction of WVO, then the cetane value of the resultant biod can be down into the 30s, wheras the tallows cetane value can be in the high 50s or even 60s.
How does this impact SVO users?

This has been discussed before--The Cetaine Rating, is Different to the Cetaine NUMBER--Which is more important-- The lighter fractions of veggy have a high Cetane Number......
Youll see no difference in the running of the engine in the Real-World!

I can't remember if I saw a response to this here, so I'll ask. Has anywone tried recovering methanol from the glycerine via simple distillation after it has been used to pre-treat WVO as HCII has described? How did that go?

Also, for HCII: I notice you wash the bioD using a solution of 1:2000 H2SO4:H2O. What is the concentration of stock H2SO4 you add to the water for your 1:2000 solution?

Thanks,
-Jay

quote:

Originally posted by JGK:
I can't remember if I saw a response to this here, so I'll ask. Has anywone tried recovering methanol from the glycerine via simple distillation after it has been used to pre-treat WVO as HCII has described? How did that go?

Also, for HCII: I notice you wash the bioD using a solution of 1:2000 H2SO4:H2O. What is the concentration of stock H2SO4 you add to the water for your 1:2000 solution?

Thanks,
-Jay

Probably, the meth in the glyc will be evaporated to a large extent and also well diluted by any excess water from the waste oils.....

The Acid, is standard Industrial grade 98% H2SO4, but you could use Fresh Car-Battery acid, which is slightly safer, and already diluted to 1 part acid to 4 parts water or thereabouts.....

Hey HCII
I just got a batch of oil that the top blew off the 55 barrel. It is significantly wet.
I have pumped the top off and have a bunch of
cruddy wet oil left .Do you think i would benefit
from this process to reduce the amt of water in the oil before i dewater with heat.I like to avoid
water explosions in hot oil.

quote:

Originally posted by Old300D:
I have recently come into a partially hydrogenated oil source that titrates at 5 grams KOH, and have made a 1 liter sample. I then took the glycerine by-product and treated another liter of this creamy glop with it. I got a nice separation, and a layer of crap about as thick as the glycerine. My next step is to make another 1 liter batch with just the top oil and compare the two batches of biodiesel. Should be interesting.

And interesting it is. I took the oil off the top. It titrated at 1 gram KOH. I only had 1/2 a liter, so I took 100ml methanol and 1/2 gram KOH, and made a 1/2 liter test batch.

No separation. As far as I can tell, I have no biodiesel to test against the original test batch. I will try again when I have some glycerine by-product. Very strange, I've never had a test batch not separate before.

This seems to have been lost in the shuffle so I'll ask again..

quote:

Originally posted by kumar:
So, just to be crystal clear, has anyone here had repeated successes in significantly reducing the cloudpoint using only glyc. w/KOH and transesterification w/KOH?

quote:

Originally posted by kumar:
This seems to have been lost in the shuffle so I'll ask again..

quote:

Originally posted by kumar:
So, just to be crystal clear, has anyone here had repeated successes in significantly reducing the cloudpoint using only glyc. w/KOH and transesterification w/KOH?

Yes. That's exactly what I am trying to do. I would be interested to hear if anyone has had success as well. If it fails again with KOH (and this is not performing a water pre-wash to get the glycerine), I will duplicate this experiment with NaOH.