Graham-
Sounds like your source oil is really nasty stuff!
It may be an advantage, to find some fairly good oils to 'thin it all' up a bit before treating--or maybe just enough heat to make it a little more fluid, but without actually melting too much of the fats.........

quote:

Originally posted by High Compression II:
Graham-
Sounds like your source oil is really nasty stuff!
It may be an advantage, to find some fairly good oils to 'thin it all' up a bit before treating--or maybe just enough heat to make it a little more fluid, but without actually melting too much of the fats.........

This is what I did, heated it until it became fluid NOT hot and then added my glycerin (NO water) I have very good seperation and the nasty smell has pretty much gone.

HTH

Ian

IanTucker-
Sounds like you are having fun! Ive found though, if the fats are melted too much, they dont seem to separate as well as when its done cold--Maybe you have the better plan of not getting the oil hot, but just enough heat to make the whole lot fluid.

Forgot to add about the smell reduction--Some oil especially if there is a little water in there, can smell like vomit magnified 1000 times-Real gut-wrenching stuff--especially if the oil has been stored in an IBC (1000 litre plastic industrial storage/transportable tank) where the water has settled out at the bottom over time, and the microbes have got going!

I guess the small amount of meth and NaOH left in the by-product kills off the microbial action which makes the smells, which is a nice bonus!

I am wondering how the HCII method affects titration. Has anyone compared titration values before and after the glycol settling procedure?

I have found it will sometimes lower the titration by about .5. I had some oil that i did titration on that was bottom of the barrel stuff, it titrated at 3.8 after it settled it titrated at 3.3 But this is the only batch i can tell about,as i have slept since the rest of em.(after a while they all kinda blurr together)
This system works great for lowering the plug point in cold weather,and in my opinion, is well worth the extra time and trouble.
Now if i could just figure out a way to get someone else to clean out the dewater tank i do this in.........

High Compression
Just reacted another 35 gallon batch tonite and got a tank full soakin for this weekend. Hope all is well for ya commin in the new year...
Jammer

I like the concept, so I tried adding 15% glycol byproduct to two thick samples from previous batches that I actually made biodiesel fuel from sucsessfully. After two days I see no settling any different than before the glycol added. These batches even tho they are thick, like loose peanut butter, titrated at 1.5 and 1 and made good fuel. I haven't tested the gel point yet tho. It's been mild here this week (in the 30's) so I have been running B50 im my Mercedes 240D. It has been running great!

quote:

Originally posted by BobAbbey:
I am wondering how the HCII method affects titration. Has anyone compared titration values before and after the glycol settling procedure?

During the small number of comparison titration tests I did of before, and after oils, I also found a slight reduction in titration number, but as it was so small, (around .5-.7 mL) I didnt really think it worth mentioning, and not a really valid reason to do the Pre-Treatment.... but as they say,

Every little helps!

quote:

Originally posted by kumar:
I'm told that my test has been "clearing up"- I haven't seen it in a while (I've been travelling and stuck at the desk, not the plant site), but I look forward to reporting a little more on it...

Hey, Kumar--
How is it looking?--Its been settling for a very long time now......

The biodiesel batch made from the clear phase is undergoing its second wash.

- The yield of oil was reduced by about 25% due to the glyc. prewash, but I can report the same "look" that everyone else has reported- clear "red" oil on top of f'ugly white/gray junk.

- The FFA % went from 5.2 to 3.

- The titration went down A LOT, although I don't remember the exact numbers (sorry, I didn't expect to do an update right now, so I don't have my notes)

- The yield of biodiesel:feedstock was about 94%, meaning that the overall yield (including the glycerol pre-wash) was relatively unaffected by the new procedure. In other words, if I simply used a one-stage base catalysis on the grease without the pre-wash, I'd need more catalyst and MeOH, I'd get a heck of a lot of soap and glycerin, and end up with a similar ~70% biodiesel:feedstock yield (if I'm lucky).

- Until I'm through with the washes, I won't be able to report on cold properties.

That's all for now. Thanks again for the wonderful thread.

p.s. - In The Biodiesel Handbook, which I am currently reading (kind of like taking the Iowa State Workshop all over again), says on p. 48 "An alternative approach reported for utilizing FFA-containing feedstocks involves preesterification with glycerol followed by alkali-catalyzed transesterification." It refers to a footnote:

Turck, R., Method of Producing Fatty Acid Esters of Monovalent Alkyl Alcohols and Use Thereof, U.S. Patent 6,538,146 B2 (2003).

Anybody with way too much time on their hands wanna look that up??

Hi Kumar--
Tried looking up that patent, but couldnt find much about it.....

Just goes to show, that there's nothing new in the world, just re-discoveries by different people....

Reading between the lines about what you said,

"An alternative approach reported for utilizing FFA-containing feedstocks involves preesterification with glycerol followed by alkali-catalyzed transesterification."--

Maybe the idea was for the reduction of titration value by the 'partial esterification' of the feedstock by the by-product, rather than the use to remove tallows, which was my use for the process, and the Slight reduction in titration values noticed by myself and others was just a side-bonus...

Interesting to see the titration of your test-batch, fell quite markedly during your testing, maybe this was due to the long period of settlement due to your lower temps/high humidity...

Looking forward to your cold test results....

H.C.II, At--Bated-Breath divn, SWC

Bump!
Just bringing this up the ranks, as its still very cold!---

My first try at this was successful.

I did use heat because it was so cold that I had to warm it up to get it moving.

What I did was fill my processor completely full (carefully), then drained off enough to make room for 15% glyc. I then turned on the circulation pump and proceeded to add the glyc. I pulled a sample after 10 minutes of mixing and another after 2 hours of mixing and both settled nicely. (10 minutes is apparently enough.)

The end result withstood 25F before beginning to show signs of clouding and a 50% mix seems to be just fine for the 10F mornings here in Colorado.

Maybe next time I'll try it w/ no or little heat. Right now my 2nd batch of pre-treated oil is ready to process into biodiesel.

Shaun

Yeah in winter the best way to clear the gravy/soup out of the oil. You can get some really clear oil out of a gunky drum with this method... in summer don't need it so much here west of the black stump...

I used it last winter to great effect. So does anyone else who listens to me...

Top stuff HC and thakyou for sharing it with us.

Hi Bushpig,--Long time no see!--How you doing 'west of the black-stump'!

CS-Shaun,
If its very cold, some guys need to heat the gloop oil a little to get it fluid enough.....Seems to work better if its a little more fluid....But, the testing Ive done indicate, that heating too much seems to lessen the efficiency of separating the tallows, but may help the titration side of things....

Glad to hear youve had good results with it....

CS-Shaun,

You do this in your processor?
Does the settled glyc & tallows drain out of there ok?
How long do you let it settle before you seperate it?
I'd like to try that, but don't want to clog my processor.

Thanks,
Bob

Bobabbey--
I was thinking of the very same thing, after I had posted...

The tallows after treating are very sticky and do tend to cling somewhat, but I guess if he's got a good cone on the bottom and say, drains a couple of times, then probably most will be removed.....

Hello,

I am sorry to report that my test did not agree with the other results posted. Despite the clear reductions in oil opacity, FFA %, and KOH as determined by titration, the resultant biodiesel is wax solid at just under 30 ° F, which puts it right in line with our typical homemade product.

I'm not sure why our results are so nice in terms of FFA and titration (arguably, better than others posted here) and yet so lame in terms of coldflow properties.

I will definitely be trying it again, when the opportunity provides. In the meantime, any ideas?

Kumar-
How strange--
Most guys have had such good results with the idea, Not sure what went wrong, Only speculating now--But how cold is it there in your W/S where you did the settling part?

Some of the guys checking this out, have found that just a little heat, just enough to make the oil more free-flowing seemed to help it all along.
Please give it another bash, Im sure itll work out--Must be something silly going on.....

I have recently come into a partially hydrogenated oil source that titrates at 5 grams KOH, and have made a 1 liter sample. I then took the glycerine by-product and treated another liter of this creamy glop with it. I got a nice separation, and a layer of crap about as thick as the glycerine. My next step is to make another 1 liter batch with just the top oil and compare the two batches of biodiesel. Should be interesting.

Hey bob
I wouldn't do it in my processor. Use an inverted barrel, bungs down and a drain.
Strain your oil and move it to the settle barrel.
Pour in the glyc, and just stirr it up with a stick for a few seconds, it will turn real nasty lookin, Leave it settle for a few days and vac off the top oil till you get to the gunk (yellow nasty
you will know when you get there) drain out the first bucket, it will be the old glyc and skunky stuff. the next one will be fat and nasty, let it settle out and you can pull more oil off the top.
You will find a stickey mess in your barrel you just emptied out,bottom 6-10 inches. I use a flat piece of plastic screwed to a broom handle to scrape out this crud .
I wouldnt try to do it in the processor because you are tring to get rid of the fats,for your winter fuel, and a lot of it will still be stuck in the processor and mix back into your oil u just cleaned up.

Jammer