High Compression
Well i found my problem with what i thought was my
BD. When i mixed up 50%dino i was getting crap at 10-15°F. Well today it dawned on me,I bought my dino i was using to mix with a couple weeks ago.
I put a sample (straight dino) in the freezer, JUNK.
Seems speedieway didnt put in any antijell, I got summer fuel in december.
I bought yesterday at a different source,no jell.
Mixed up 50%again and no jell or cloud at -2°f using the glyc in the oil. Its in the truck and no trouble.
Jammer

quote:

Originally posted by High Compression II:
It works with straight veggy oils, that were originally clear liquid oils at room temp, like Canola/Rape/Corn etc, contaminated by animal fats from chicken, sausages, meats, etc.etc. from cooking

HCII
Why would it specifically pull out the animal fats? Just trying to figure out how this works...

Are you sure it's not just pulling out the stearic and oleic FAs (or rather, the glycerides with those FAs)? i.e. the high freezing point ones? For example, if you have some WVO that you know is just WVO, no tallow, will this be of any benefit? If so, that would seem to indicate it's pulling out the stearates, oleates, etc., for some reason.

My main concern is - those esters with the higher freezing points are also the ones with the higher cetanes. It would be interesting to see the cetane of a batch of bio made this way, and a batch made normally, from the same WVO. That should help clarify things somewhat (of course, looking at the ester profile with a GC would be best).

quote:

Are you sure it's not just pulling out the stearic and oleic FAs (or rather, the glycerides with those FAs)? i.e. the high freezing point ones?

My understanding is that this is precisely what is happening. The animal fats have greater percentages of high melting point FAs. When vegetable oils are "winterized", the same process is used to remove their high melting point FAs.
I'm not aware of any cetane problems. Yes there are differences, but they don't prevent normal use as fuel.

The important Cetaine Number, rather than Cetane Rating (which is different....), is much higher for BioDiesel anyway--So the effects of the Slight differences in Cetaine Number are not noticable...

I was lead to believe the high melting point esters had a lower Cetaine Number anyway, so its advantagous to remove them for this reason, BUT the effects in the real world are not noticable.........

The only way you can find the Cetaine Number is with a 'Knock-Engine'--A special variable compression engine for checking the Knock-Number or Cetane Number of the fuel--There are very few of these about and usually buried in Big-Oil's labs........

The GC test just gives the Rating, which has less relevence to a proper Knock-Engine test.........

The Pre-Treatment may be removing higher sterates/oelates etc as well as the animal tallows, I dont know, All I do know, is it makes great fuel.........

quote:

Originally posted by Mike Briggs:

quote:

Originally posted by High Compression II:
It works with straight veggy oils, that were originally clear liquid oils at room temp, like Canola/Rape/Corn etc, contaminated by animal fats from chicken, sausages, meats, etc.etc. from cooking

HCII
Why would it specifically pull out the animal fats? Just trying to figure out how this works...

Are you sure it's not just pulling out the stearic and oleic FAs (or rather, the glycerides with those FAs)? i.e. the high freezing point ones? For example, if you have some WVO that you know is just WVO, no tallow, will this be of any benefit? If so, that would seem to indicate it's pulling out the stearates, oleates, etc., for some reason.

SNIP

The stearic, palmitic and palmic esters are present in animal fats and in palm oil, so if they are removed when palm oil is "winterised" then they will be removed if tallow is "winterised"

HCII,

I've been following this discussion with great interest, as it may indeed offer an answer to a company like mine that uses recycled bio but hates adding ANYTHING to winterize it, and what we do add (5% kero + .2% Winterflow 8500) doesn't have nearly the effect we'd like. This could really be the solution.

I was wondering if you could post some pictures of the glycerol pre-wash (before during after) and also some pictures of settling after your water introduction in the biodiesel reaction.

If you could post those, I would be even more indebted to you. Perhaps if you ever visit Ukiah, CA, I can treat you to dinner at this country's first certified organic brewpub.

If I had some pics I would definately post them, BUT unfortunately, I havent--Something I hope to do the next time I react!.

I need to pre-treat some oil very soon as Im running low at the mo, Ill do some at a friends place, who is quite sceptical and runs WVO. Well do a 200 litre barrel and Ill take some piccies.

Its a shame I didnt take any pics when I worked at Sundance..............

I can describe the 'stages' if you like?

When you first mix the undemethed glyc. with your raw oil, after around 10 mins, the effect is like the first stage of cheese-making--The 'fats' seem to clump together in tiny 'bits', and slowly start to sink, leaving a cloudy oil at the surface. As time passes, the fats sink to the bottom and the oil gets clearer, and after about 3 days in an open vessel is good and clear--Good enough to use as SVO straight in the tank, after filtration, on an unheated SVO conversion!.

After draining out the clear oil from the surface down, the fats that are left in the barrel are very pale, sticky, and quite thick in consistancy, with the glyc settling out right at the bottom, in some cases

The settling after the introduction of water during your BioDiesel making is the same as normal, apart from the glyc looks like Coke rather than being completely black, as it is normally. BUT when you first add the water, while still mixing, the reaction goes sortof brown opaque, then after about 10 mins of mixing returns to its normal appearance. Settling is very fast at reaction temps, and normally totally settled after half-hour, leaving orange-juice BioDiesel, and Coke Glycerine by-product, which doesnt solidify when cold, unless its been standing at 0 deg C for a week or so.....

The BioDiesel washes easily and is quite often a lighter shade of gold when totally finished.

A lot of the soaps end up in the by-product, which is confirmed as its easy to make a lather if you whisk some up in a bucket!

Does any of the water stay in the biodiesel. I use Magnasol to wash/dry my fuel and it needs to be water free.

Ian

quote:

Originally posted by High Compression II:

After draining out the clear oil from the surface down, the fats that are left in the barrel are very pale, sticky, and quite thick in consistancy, with the glyc settling out right at the bottom, in some cases.

HCII, thanks! One question regarding the quote I copied (above): Is the glycerin a distinct enough layer that you can isolate it and remove it, and can the sticky fats be heated and run through, say, an acid base 2-stage process?

Also, you said this earlier:

quote:

Yield of BioDiesel, after Glyc-wash and full 1:2000 H2SO4;H2O wash three times

So you're using sulfuric acid as a wash adjunct? I imagine the purpose there is quicker separation. Still, are you at all concerned about the sulfuric acid leaving a footprint on the fuel?

quote:

Originally posted by IanTucker:
Does any of the water stay in the biodiesel. I use Magnasol to wash/dry my fuel and it needs to be water free.

Ian

When ever water is added to just made fuel whether the glyc has been removed first or not, Then some entrained water will remain in the fuel. Ive never tried these magnasol type drying agents as I have seroius mis-givings as to their effectiveness, as well as possible contamination with the smaller crystals of the stuff which Im lead to believe are highly abrasive--Not something you put into a real precision fuel injection pump (which means practically every IP made), even in the tinyest amounts!--I dry by spray-drying at 60-70 degrees C, normally takes an hour or so, with far less fuss and expense...

quote:

Originally posted by kumar:

quote:

Originally posted by High Compression II:

After draining out the clear oil from the surface down, the fats that are left in the barrel are very pale, sticky, and quite thick in consistancy, with the glyc settling out right at the bottom, in some cases.

HCII, thanks! One question regarding the quote I copied (above): Is the glycerin a distinct enough layer that you can isolate it and remove it, and can the sticky fats be heated and run through, say, an acid base 2-stage process?

Also, you said this earlier:

quote:

Yield of BioDiesel, after Glyc-wash and full 1:2000 H2SO4;H2O wash three times

So you're using sulfuric acid as a wash adjunct? I imagine the purpose there is quicker separation. Still, are you at all concerned about the sulfuric acid leaving a footprint on the fuel?

Kumar-
The Glycerine does settle out (mostly, although some I reckon is 'attached' to the fats) from the fats that are left behind. The glyc will contain quite some crud and any larger quantities of water that was in the veggy treated
The gloopy fat/tallow oils, will contain a huge amount of crud/chips/burnt-bits/dead rats/fag-ends/snails etc and other crud like this. You can make fuel with this stuff, and according to its titration is dependent on whether you do the acid stage first--(Ive never had any luck with an acid esterification when ever Ive tried experimenting with it, Maybe you have........!)

Just because its tallows etc, doesnt necessarily mean it will be a high titration, so its worth checking the titration first.....
I have made fuel from the crud that was left, but the quality wasnt what I would call good, It was a pain to process as the pumps didnt really like to pump that stuff cold as well as all the rubbish in it made filtration after a nightmare, and a good wash-out of the processor was needed after, although a of crud came out with the glyc from that batch We used this fuel for 5% blend for a local Haulage company during the summer months, who loved it--Since then we gave up on using the tallow settlement stuff and just passed it on within the oil-trade, where it got burned in power-stations as a supplement to their normal fuels.

The sulphuric at these very low %, you can't even taste in the water!--(Been there, Tried that!)
During Laboratory testing, the effects of the acid were not apparent. (and I asked for an acid number to be taken of the fuel--It was well within EN-14214 spec, and the sulphur content was very low so there was no apparent 'footprint' left)

At the usual % used for washing, (100-1?) there is an apparent effect, but even this is very slight.
The effectiveness of the addition of acid is still there up to around 4000 to one of acid in water--We have relatively 'soft' water here, although I never checked its Ph...

Well, HCII, I'm testing your methods right now, and will probably have something to report by mid-next week (I've got a mini-batch made with the reaction-water-wash settling after wash #1, and I've also got a mini-batch of oil that's had the glycerol pre-wash, and it's also settling).

Kumar-
Great--Thats probably the best way , to do as you are, 'Control' batches against the 'Test' batches.

I hope it goes well, and I will be interested in your results--I know what you mean about adding things to the fuel--Some of these additives are very expensive and not as effective as the suppliers will have you believe--The use of Kero is good, but not permitted here in the UK, as its a 'Rebated' fuel, prohibited for road use, so we in the UK must resort to standard diesel fuel for winterisation in blends up to 50%.

With any luck, the Pre-Treatment, will reduce the amounts of the kero/additive you have to use, and improve the quantity of 'usable' oils you get from your supplier/collection rounds, as Ive noticed that the quantity of 'good' oil to 'tallow' oil is much higher after treatment probably due to much better separation than just leaving to stand.

H.C.II, At-- Hoping For Success Divn, SWC

quote:

Originally posted by kumar:
Well, HCII, I'm testing your methods right now, and will probably have something to report by mid-next week (I've got a mini-batch made with the reaction-water-wash settling after wash #1, and I've also got a mini-batch of oil that's had the glycerol pre-wash, and it's also settling).

Well, I checked up on the tests today and here's what I have to report...

1) HCII's reaction-water-wash does seem to make the wash process go smoother with less soap.

2) The glycerol prewash was bungled somehow, and I am reasonably sure it is from one or a combination of the following: the cold weather (not that cold at around 50° C), the humidity (big storm raging outside open shed wherein test is conducted), or the possibility that I "over-mixed", although I certainly didn't provide heavy agitation.

Anyway, I hope to provide pics soon.

Kumar-
What was the result of the glyc-prewash? what effect did you get? Your temperature shouldnt have been a problem, but maybe some moisture got in there, but normally the glyc tends to take excess water out of the oil anyway.

Glad to hear the water-washing is easier for you. I have had great success using it.

This may have been mentioned already, but, what ratio of glycerine to wvo are you using?

I assume you are just pouring the 2 together, or is mixing it all together required. If mixing is required, just a stir or two or should it be run thru a mixing pump like during processing?

I wonder if warming the oil and the glycerine, mixing it in a processor, then draining, and let settle in another container would be and advantage?

Good info, as it is cold up here. Kevin

Kevin
He said mix 10-15% glyc and just stirr,not hard mix.

High Compression I reread the thread, Last nite i did another batch to settle and after i added the glyc i realised i used the glyc that i did a pre wash with. I know it had 3 gallons of water in it. The first time i did this i used the glyc from my first batch, that i didn't do a prewash on. From the thread i think that you have done it both ways but i am just checking.
I used 5 gallons of glyc to settle but i had 10 gallons from the last batch so i am guessing there is only 1.5 gal of water or does the water settle to the bottom of the glyc or stay mixed for a time 10-15 hours?? I guess i could let it settle out a few days and ck the oil for water. Thanks
Jammer

HCII, I followed your instructions regarding % undemethed glyc. (with water in it). My resulting solution looks pretty opaque medium brown and splotchy, basically some kind of semi-emulsion, as of yesterday. Haven't seen it yet today.

Kumar-
Sounds good so far, The oil and glyc after mixing does look a little like gravy, but will settle and clear in around 3 days. The tallows tend to settle out in around a day to two days, but for perfect clarity it may take around 4 days to completely clear.

Ive used oil settled after 24 hours, the cloudiness will clear on heating and drying before reacting --Maybe there is a little meth and moisture present at the early stages of settlement but do not seem to cause any problems when processed providing the oil is dried first as normal.

Jammer-
The glycerine has a great affinity with the water, so will stay 'in solution' with the glycerine, in addition to picking up the larger quantities of water in the oil thats treated. I believe that Tony From West Oz uses this method for removing the heavy traces of water from his oil before he dries the oil. Using this method reduces his drying time (I think it was Tony who was doing this, I may be wrong......) The water does not settle out from the glyc at any time that Ive seen........
I used glyc that had had the water added during the last stages of the reaction process, at around 5% of oil reacted, so my glyc was always 'Wet'

quote:

Originally posted by High Compression II:
Kumar-
Sounds good so far, The oil and glyc after mixing does look a little like gravy, but will settle and clear in around 3 days. The tallows tend to settle out in around a day to two days, but for perfect clarity it may take around 4 days to completely clear.

HCII, I appreciate the help. When I looked at it yesterday, it had been about 3 days. Perhaps the settling is slowed by the slightly cold weather and humidity.