Hello everyone,

I have a customer who purchased a new Dodge truck about a year and a half ago, which now has around 20,000 miles on it. During that span, he's had problems here and there, none of which seemed serious or biodiesel-related (he was mentioned that the CEL was on a lot). He seems to view this truck as pretty unreliable, which is often the complaint about new engines. He's tried to run B100, but has gone periods without, and figures he's averaged around B80 for the time he's had the truck.

He brought it in to the dealership the other day for its oil change, and they told him that there was too much oil, that it smelled burnt, and that it was overly viscous. They pointed to leaky injectors, saying that fuel was getting into the motor oil.

At this point, he hasn't authorized or paid for any repairs (beyond the diagnosis), and he's generously giving me some time to check this out even though he really needs this truck for his work. Dodge says the work won't be covered under warranty, because it's fuel-related. What's interesting though is that they seem to be blaming the *quality* of the fuel, not the fuel itself. I store samples going back very far, and can easily prove the fuel is ASTM spec. According to the dealership, Dodge allows B20 only in "military and commercial" use, and B5 in all other situations. While "commercial" is a meaningless term, I'm guessing this has to do with BQ-9000 "certified" fuel. Okay, whatever.

Question #1: assuming good fuel, is there really a possibility that B20 wouldn't have caused problems, but the high blend he used did, after just 20K miles?

Question #2: has anyone experienced anything similar. I know that people have been concerned about this type of problem, but this is my first time actually encountering it.

Finally, I haven't exactly been recommending people use high blends in these new trucks, but I've been under the impression that it should work, provided the fuel is good quality. I was surprised that he had been using such a high blend and hadn't talked to me about it. I'm really trying to gauge if there's a serious issue here that should lead me to steer people with new Dodge trucks (and possibly other vehicles?) away from high blend usage.

Its a problem with anything with a DPF (particulate filter) due to the excess fueling during regeneration, which is on all US models >=2007. See this thread:
Biodiesel getting into engine oil
about this same topic.
And this thread:
Warning:danger of using VO/>B5 on many vehicles >=2007

Thanks. These links are helpful too:

http://www.biodieselmagazine.com/article.jsp?article_id=2290&q=&page=1

http://biodiesel.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/419605551/m/7441014642/p/1

If a DPF delete kit is really needed for this, then that is complete BS- making the consumer buy extra stuff in order to run the vehicle properly. All these OEMs should have seen the writing on the wall- people use biodiesel, and this is clearly not a fuel quality issue.

I have an 07 Dodge with 26,000 miles, 10,000 using B50. I do notice that when I'm on B50 my oil level rises usually about 1 quart over 3,000 miles, especially if I'm towing my fifth wheel. Thats why I change the oil in 3,000 mile intervals. Other than that the truck has been great. The CEL does occassionally come on but only when I'm 'babying' it to save fuel.
About a year ago Dodge did reprogram the computer to help with the CEL problem and it did help alot.

quote:

Originally posted by scooter:
I have an 07 Dodge with 26,000 miles, 10,000 using B50. I do notice that when I'm on B50 my oil level rises usually about 1 quart over 3,000 miles, especially if I'm towing my fifth wheel. Thats why I change the oil in 3,000 mile intervals. Other than that the truck has been great. The CEL does occassionally come on but only when I'm 'babying' it to save fuel.
About a year ago Dodge did reprogram the computer to help with the CEL problem and it did help alot.

Thanks Scooter. That's very helpful information. It does seem to me that even if a person followed instructions and only used ASTM spec B20 ("allowed" by Dodge for fleet trucks), that could present problems. I really hope they resolve this with future engines, as it's pretty ridiculous.

quote:

Originally posted by scooter:
I have an 07 Dodge with 26,000 miles, 10,000 using B50. I do notice that when I'm on B50 my oil level rises usually about 1 quart over 3,000 miles, especially if I'm towing my fifth wheel. Thats why I change the oil in 3,000 mile intervals. Other than that the truck has been great. The CEL does occassionally come on but only when I'm 'babying' it to save fuel.
About a year ago Dodge did reprogram the computer to help with the CEL problem and it did help alot.

You are playing russian roulette with your engine, get the DPS delete kit, polymerization of engine oil can occur at differing intervals depending on ambient temp and several other values, and you dont need complete polymerization to occur to have an engine destroying condition, you only need to have some partially polymerized boogers to clog oil passages and then it it all over but the shouting.

Fabricator-

So we know that the "pro" of having your DPF "deleted" is that your truck will run the way we are all used to.

What, if any, are the "cons" of installing a DPF Delete Kit? I've heard of it being illegal, but I don't know why. I've heard warranty concerns, but are they different than any other aftermarket parts in that respect?

I'm working on a letter to the dozen or so of our customers with DPF-laden vehicles, and I want to give the right advice.

Thanks.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: kumar,

They are supposed to reduce soot emissions, so they are a pollution control device, so it is illegal to remove them.
Your customer likely does not have leaky injectors, part of the dpf process involves flushing the valve with fuel and some of this fuel ends up in the engine oil, so if you are directly mixing bio with dino engine oil that is a recipe for disaster.
I am not sure of all the particulars of the delete kit, I have a friend who did this to his 07 ford, he had some initial problems with engine fault codes that eventually got sorted
out now it runs almost as good as my 7.3 on bio.
But I think you were on the right track when you posted that you dont necessarily recommend bio for engines that have the dpf system, bcause unless you intend to religiously change your oil, like every 3k or less, or you intend to bypass the dpf system you are likely to have very costly problems.

These DPF's have been out in Dodge trucks for nearly two years now. Many people have run bio in them for many miles. Has anyone heard of any engine problems, besides the normal claims of injectors and pumps?

Guys

You need to have a reputable shop that rebuilds fuel injectors and fuel injector pumps check out the fuel system, I would guess that you either have a leaking injector pump seal or the bosch rack pump has an internal leak at one of the pumps (there are 6 of them)and keep in mind that the pump is lubed thru the engine oil system and the oil then drains back into the pan and that is probley the source of the rising oil level.
If you have a bad injector you should be able to see white or blue smoke coming from the exhaust as that is unburnt fuel, also if that much fuel is getting into the oil pan thru the piston rings then you have a major problem.
Also if the diaphram on the fuel lift pump is leaking that will allow fuel to get into the oil pan and also cause the engine issues and again have the fuel shop check the lift pump delivery pressure.
Was the fuel filter checked again as there could be bad fuel in fuel tank, I have seen algi in fuel tanks that kept causing the fuel filter to clog up until the fuel tank was taken out and cleaned, so again another item that should be checked.
Why is it as soon as the dealship mechanics or so called mechanics find out you are running bio that is the first thing they blame?
I hope these suggestions will help you out.

May the LORD bless

first thing I'd recommend to your customer is a oil analysis from a reputable lab like Blackstone. This will tell you *exactly* what is going on. For $30 or so, it's $$$ well spend, imho. Then I'd go from there...

quote:

part of the dpf process involves flushing the valve with fuel

What valve are you refering to?

alotizzip,

There is absolutely NO CHANCE of algae in this case (are you really SURE you've see algae in tanks, because I've been in this business 7+ years, and although I hear that refrain a lot, I myself never have seen it).

You said you'd guess that there's a leaking injector pump seal or another pump seal- well, not only are those problems exceeding unlikely after only 20K miles, but all the evidence points to DPF issues that, frankly, a lot of people here have been expecting for quite some time. I appreciate your desire to help, but "guesses" that ignore the existing discussion just clog threads.

Thank you.

Rudolf,

I already know the amount of fuel that accumulated in the motor oil. While the oil analysis may tell me if any polymerization has occurred, that seems to be a secondary concern at this point- obviously, the oil would be replaced, and this customer is not going to run biodiesel for the time being. What else could be learned from that report?

Thanks.

Hi guy's
I found this:Cummins Diesel ForumThey are on top of 6.7 cummins problems. and other related subjects, its a great diesel resorce.

Thanks Ratski. I think I'm already a member there, but the reminder is warranted- it's been awhile.

quote:

Originally posted by scooter:
Has anyone heard of any engine problems, besides the normal claims of injectors and pumps?

Yes many other problems, linked in the threads I gave above. Motor oil dilution with large % of bio or VO can create polymerization, and breakdown of the additive package, which causes quicker wear of the entire engine, and complete destruction of the engine if you go long enough between oil changes.

Sunwizard,

Do you think a DPF delete kit, installed properly, will solve these problems, out-of-sight, out-of-mind?

Well I just got my 2008 Dodge Ram last month.

I ran the 25 gallons of ULSD it came with, added 6 gallons of B50 and topped it off with another 25 gallons of ULSD.

I figure this gave me about B8, then I added 5 gallons of biodiesel each time I used up 5 to 10 gallons of fuel.

This slowly increased my blend.

Taking me from B8 to B25, B50, B80, B95

Then after 1865 miles and 116 gallons of fuel I checked my oil after reading an article in Biodiesel Magazine about post-injection.

Sure enough my oil level was well over the max mark. I promptly drained my oil and changed it with 3 gallons of Rotella 15W40.

I measured out all the oil I drained from the truck into 1 gallon jugs to quantify how much fuel had gotten into it.

In total I had an extra 2+ quarts on top of the 3 gallons. Almost overflowed the collection bin.

So I got 17% oil dilution after only 1800 miles, with an average blend of B57.

In general I would say the problem is very bad.

If you wanted to use B100 you would need to change the oil after only 600-800 miles or in short every tank of fuel, change the oil.

All the sudden the claims I heard the Mercedes dealship make about biodiesel destroying turbos in Bluetec RL320's is starting to actually make sense.


--
Jeff Brandt
The SunBreak BioStudio, LLC
http://www.sunbreakbiofuels.com
mailto:jeffb@sunbreakbiofuels.com

Update on my 07 Dodge. For the last oil change period I was unable to run B50 (burned down the shed). So when it came time to change the oil, the oil level was about two quarts high. Mind you I was running ULSD only for the period. I took the truck to the dealership and all was well. So I was mistaken in my previous post about ULSD not 'overfilling' the crankcase.