quote:

As I see it, if everyone obeyed the letter of the law, no one ( or only the barest handful of people) would be able to run their cars on veg at all.

And you'd be wrong again. For one, NC passed a law during last year's 2007 session exempting homebrewed biodiesel from sales and use tax, same as motor fuels sold to the state or fed governments.

You know, presuming everyone is intentionally out to break the law can be seen as a sign of bad character, a sign of seeking self-justification for deliberately making bad decisions.

"Well if HE gets away with that, I ought be abled to get away with this..." won't cut it with a judge - neither does it incriminate anyelse but YOU.

Besides, what kind of life is having to go through it "looking over one's shoulder"? It takes less effort, less worry being honest than devising "schemes".

quote:

Originally posted by R. Keith Davis:

And you'd be wrong again. For one, NC passed a law during last year's 2007 session exempting homebrewed biodiesel from sales and use tax, same as motor fuels sold to the state or fed governments.

That is great news!
If the EPA has also made homebrew Bio legal for on road use, you have ( or don't need) a license to collect and transport the WVO, can store the chemicals legally, you have or don't need permits from your local council, Fire, occupational health and saftey authourity and everyone else that you should have a permit from and have met their regulations and requirements to brew the Bio at home, I guess you are in a position to feel very content that you are doing the right thing and not breaking any laws or need to justify yourself...like those who steal WVO!

How many US states have NOT passed similar laws to NC making it still currently illegal to run Bio or veg fuels ( and those doing it liable to prosecution) on a home brew basis?

What percentage of Bio users overall would you say those in NC ( and the other states where it is legal to run Bio or veg) represent?
Would you call it a majority or would you say it was more like a handful as I did?

Twisting my words to suit your own arguments certainly doesn't earn you any credibility or further your ill founded assertions. I'm not trying to justify or "scheme" anything, it doesn't matter to me if people take oil out of dumpsters or not, particularly in the US.

Please read and comment on what I actually say, not fabricate an argument based on what was never said you think you can score some points on.
I have only asked questions regarding different issues and have never said that taking oil from collectors drums was right.
If you can't understand a philosophical question, best you don't comment on it and reveal your ignorance.

What I am still wondering is why some peopleare so Gun-Ho about some laws but think nothing of breaking others? I have made points on a number of other issues but, predictably, these have been ignored by those that know they are not complying with them. They make a song and dance about those doing the wrong thing by taking oil from dumpsters but don't of course want to address the laws that they are breaking themselves.

So far it seems to me that some laws suit peoples agenda's and others don't. They then champion people obey the laws that they have an interest in people obeying and blissfully sweep under the carpet and ignore the ones that would be " inconvinent" for them themselves to obey.

For those that need it spelled out for them, my point is, to make a fuss about the wrong doings people commit in one aspect of veg oil use and chastise them when the greatest likelihood is that those doing so are not without fault themselves, seems rather hypocritical.

Put simply, seems like a case of the pot calling the kettle black.

DCS, your ignorance of the laws governing bio dieselers in the US does not seem to stop you from making broad generalizations.
You assume all of us are breaking some laws to manufacture bio diesel.
Wrong assumption. I abide by all the laws in Indiana regarding the making and use of bio diesel for my own consumption.
As for stealing oil, my concern is that it only takes a few people to ruin a good thing.
I do not appreciate someone taking my oil and I am sure the renderers feel the same way. The renderers often have the where with all to get new legislation enacted that would impact all of us. That could start a cascade of events that could end the exclusions from taxes and reporting home brewerers currently enjoy.

quote:

If the EPA has also made homebrew Bio legal for on road use,...

I think the USSC ruled the EPA, in and of itself, has no regulatory or legislative authority - that it only has authority to make recommendations to appropriate enforcement agencies concerning possible environmental dangers. That determination was made, IIRC, during a hearing on the effects of second-hand tobacco smoke.

quote:

Twisting my words to suit your own arguments...

I twisted nothing - I quoted you. Even your "clarification" reveals the same mindset.

quote:

Please read and comment on what I actually say...

I did. Unless you qualify your statement, we can only deduce that you've made the assertion very few biodieselers care to follow the law to the best of their ability.

Now, YOU'RE the one who made the assertion of OTHER'S unrelated failures to divert criticism of taking what is understood and perceived to belong to others from collection bins. YOU'RE the one who is attempting to justify establishing standards based upon OTHER'S unrelated failures. IMO, that sets a fairly low standard, whether you think it ignorance or not, I really don't care..nor do I care about "points" from whomever is passing them out.

But, whatever. I wouldn't do it and I'd venture to say the majority of biodieselers wouldn't - but some will, that's the summit of their "standard". That's why laws have to and will be passed and enforced.

One other thing:

quote:

They make a song and dance about those doing the wrong thing by taking oil from dumpsters but don't of course want to address the laws that they are breaking themselves.

If they ask on this forum whether those here think their breaking the law be okay, can you make any supposition as to what answer they'd get?

Check out this article

http://www.nytimes.com/pages/national/index.html

Kitchen grease fuels a wave of fry crooks

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/national/365194_grease30.html?source=mypi
Used cooking oil is stolen from restaurants to brew biodiesel
P-I STAFF AND NEWS SERVICES

The biodiesel boom is turning into an unanticipated boon for a far-from-green portion of the population -- petty thieves, who are trading in the used cooking oil.

Cooking oil rustling is such a problem that the owners of the Olympia Pizza and Pasta Restaurant in Arlington are considering using a surveillance camera to keep watch on its 50-gallon grease barrel.

Nick Damianidis, an owner, said the barrel had been hit seven or eight times since last summer by siphoners who strike in the night.

"Fryer grease has become gold," Damianidis said. "And just over a year ago, I had to pay someone to take it away."

To the surprise of Damianidis and others, processed fryer oil, which is called yellow grease, actually is not trash. The grease is traded on the booming commodities market, where its value has increased in recent months to historic highs.

In 2000, yellow grease was trading for 7.6 cents per pound. On Thursday, its price was about 33 cents a pound, or almost $2.50 a gallon. Biodiesel is derived by processing vegetable oil or animal fat with alcohol. With a conversion kit, anyone can turn cooking oil into fuel.

"The last time kids broke in here, they went for the alcohol," Damianidis said. "Obviously they're stealing oil because it's worth something."

John Wick, vice president and founder of Seattle-based Standard Biodiesel, said his company loses 15,000 to 30,000 gallons of cooking oil each month to theft.

Standard collects the oil from 3,000 restaurants around Western Washington, pulling the grease from storage barrels outside the eateries. Wick said the system is a win-win; his company gets the grease and the restaurant owner doesn't have to pay to dispose of it.

Wick said he's had to hire someone to make sure stolen barrels are replaced and keep track of the thefts. One thief was caught on tape earlier this month, and Wick said the company is considering investing in additional cameras.

But he stopped short of saying the thefts are seriously harming his business.

"We are the business of the future, and it would be exciting to see these thieves just go away," Wick said. "They're not taking all of our oil, because our growth is very rapid."

The suspects in a growing number of grease infractions include do-it-yourself environmentalists worried about their carbon footprints, warring waste management firms trying to beat each other on the sly, and petty thieves who are profiting from the oil's rising value on the black market.

"It's a new oddity," said Officer Seth Hanson of the Federal Way Police Department. He said thefts occur outside at least a couple of restaurants there each week. "We're trying to get an eyeball on how well-organized it is, if at all. To date, we haven't been very successful in finding anybody."

Aaron Kahn of Northwest Biodiesel Network said he doesn't see why biodiesel "homebrewers" would steal waste oil.

Most people who make their own fuel get their grease from restaurants they know well, Kahn said. And they get that grease for free, so there's no incentive for thieves to resell the fruit of their crime.

"All the homebrewers who make their own biodiesel do not pay for the feedstock," Kahn said. "Until fairly recently, those restaurant owners had to pay someone to come and collect the grease."

Thefts have been reported in at least 20 states, said Christopher Griffin, whose family owns Griffin Industries, one of the largest grease collection and rendering companies in the country. The problem has gotten so bad, Griffin has hired two detectives to investigate theft cases around the country.

"Theft is theft," said Griffin, who is based in Cold Spring, Ky. "I don't care if you're stealing grease or if you're stealing diamonds."

While there have been reports of thefts in multiple states, law enforcement officials do not compile national statistics and it remains unclear whether this is part of a passing trend or something more serious.

Fryer oil from a restaurant that does a high volume of frying one kind of food -- for example, a fried-chicken chain -- is at a premium because of its relative purity. The large-scale producers of grease, restaurants mostly, own their old oil and in recent months have even made a small profit by selling it to collectors.

Because of the grease's odor, most restaurants usually store it out back with the trash.

A typical fast-food restaurant produces 150 to 250 pounds of grease a week. Many do not even know when a theft occurs because it usually happens overnight. Most security cameras and night watchmen are focused on cash registers, not the trash.

"Who do you go after?" said Jason Christensen, a trader of fats and oils for the AgriTrading Corp. in Minnesota. "I sense you'll start seeing more surveillance equipment put in to monitor these storage facilities at the restaurant. As the price goes up, you can afford to spend a little more to protect your interest."

And there is so much interest in grease these days.

The city of San Francisco has its own grease recycling program run through the Public Utilities Commission called SFGreasecycle, which collects discarded vegetable oil from city restaurants at no charge and recycles it into biodiesel for use in the city fleet.

At Olympia Pizza and Pasta, Damianidis, who now sells his grease for a small monthly fee, finds the problem of stolen fryer oil annoying and distracting. And he wants to stop the thefts. He is leaning toward a security camera and hoping for the best.

"I cook food," Damianidis said. "I'm not going to stay up until 2 in the morning trying to catch someone stealing a barrel of grease."

DCS,

Despite the fact that I am in the commercial biodiesel industry, my roots are with the homebrew crowd, and I am not "in this for the money". Sure, I want my company to succeed, but Yokayo is a business based on ideals, and has in fact sacrificed a lot of "easy money" over the years in order to hold to those ideals. If you want, take the time to go through my posts on Infopop, going back to 2001, and you'll see where I'm coming from.

quote:

Originally posted by kumar:
DCS,

Despite the fact that I am in the commercial biodiesel industry, my roots are with the homebrew crowd, and I am not "in this for the money". Sure, I want my company to succeed, but Yokayo is a business based on ideals, and has in fact sacrificed a lot of "easy money" over the years in order to hold to those ideals. If you want, take the time to go through my posts on Infopop, going back to 2001, and you'll see where I'm coming from.

Kumar; I think your credentials speak for themselves, as does your history. As you know, I am no fan of commercial biodiesel, although I can honestly say that when I critique it I hold you as an exception to the rule. You are honorable, and principled. Would they were all like you.

quote:

Originally posted by Eurocab:
Check out this article

http://www.nytimes.com/pages/national/index.html

An extract from that article not quoted on the one posted by John from the other paper. Quite obviously it is a case of the paper printing what they want people to see not the whole story.

“Once you put something in the trash, it’s abandoned property,” said Jon A. Jaworski, a lawyer in Houston who represents accused grease thieves. “A lot of times, it’s not theft.”

Now before the flamers light up, This is from the article as quoted in the previously posted link above, not a statement or opinion I am making! just want to be sure no one gets confused!

Keith,
Once again you are sidestepping the questions I raise so I will try to ask some more specificly to avoid any confusion that I would be very interested to hear your ( and other people's ) position on.

To put the questions in context, ( and please keep any replies the same) let me just make a brief statement so you know where I am coming from.....

I do not know ( or care to) about laws in the US governing the use of Bio or Veg so I ask the following as QUESTIONS not statements.

1. It is my belief from what I read, that it MAY not be legal to make or use Bio or WVO on a homebrew basis in all parts of the US and for a person to comply with ALL the laws that would apply such as ( examples only) the transportation of the grease, Taxes, storage on residential or non approved premises, local council regulations, EPA and other authourities such as as fire, electricity, ETC in all the areas a person may live.

Is it therefore a reasonable assumption to suggest that SOME people may not be abiding by, or have taken the trouble to adhere to ALL the relevant Laws, rules and regulations concerning the production and use of veg related fuels or are there no barriers whatsoever to veg fuel use in the US and everyone doing it is completely legal and not breaking ANY laws in any way, shape or form?

2. If a person ( Hypothetically) WERE breaking some laws regarding for instance, the transport, storage, manufacture, fire regulations, road or other Taxes, chemical storage rules or regulations ETC, Should those people be made to cease and desist in their activities and the laws that they are breaking be enforced and where legislated, those people should be prosecuted and punished to the full extent of the law and its provisions,
OR,
As long as they are not stealing grease the other laws don't matter and their use of veg fuels is OK and the other laws don't matter, don't need to be enforced and can be ignored?

3. -IF- there are rules and regulations in place in some states or areas that pose impediments to the processing and use of veg related fuels in at least some parts of the US ( as there are here) what percentage of people , in your estimation, would be conducting their veg fuel related activities COMPLETELY legally in full and total compliance with each and every law, rule and regulation that applies to them?

Would it be the greatest majority, the minority or would you care to give your estimated percentage figure?

I hope I have been specific enough as well as covering all eventualities and if there is anything I have missed or not specifically covered, please take them into account of the context in which the 3 questions are asked.

I look forward to your replies to these specific questions.

I have a headache...

That is a shame, I would have been interested in your thought on what I asked.

quote:

“Once you put something in the trash, it’s abandoned property,”

True enough, and if the restaurant was placing the oil in containers and tossing those containers of oil into the trash dumpster then whoever recovered the oil, or cardboard, or bottles, scrap metal, etc. wouldn't likely be charged with theft.

However removing oil would likely be seen as theft if it was from a container placed on site for used coking oil and identified as the property of someone.