quote:

Originally posted by DCS:
What I read of these collectors gels perfectly with my own experience in that the collectors overwhelmingly are a bunch of redneck cowboys

This is a BS generalization, your disclaimer about how you don't care about other people's opinions notwithstanding

quote:

One thing I do wonder about in relation to taking WVO is if the same rules apply either legally or more important, morally, to the case of if someone were to take the trash from an industrial skip bin.

You and I both know that this issue has only come up because grease is suddenly so valuable. While better resource management will teach us that there is no such thing as trash, the stuff you are talking about is not regarded as valuable, so it does not make a good comparison.

quote:

In the absence of a contract, is there any difference, possible value aside, between what sits in an oil dumpster and what sits in a trash dumpster?

You can't on the one hand ignore the value to make yourself feel better, and on the other hand steal precisely BECAUSE the product is valuable.

quote:

Likewise, would any contractor get upset or even threaten to prosecute if some "amateur" interest group found value in the rubbish they have to haul away and dispose of and started taking that out of the bins and doing something environmentally responsible with it?

again- completely misguided comparison.

quote:

If there is a difference between oil and trash, what is it?

One is valuable enough that people try to rationalize stealing it. The other isn't.

Why do you keep trying to rationalize stealing? Stealing grease is no different than stealing any other VALUABLES. Surely you own stuff that you care about, and don't want people stealing it. Unless you disavow yourself of private property, then all of your rationalizations don't make sense.

quote:

Originally posted by john galt:
There are going to be lots of justifications for theft as prices increase.

Yeah, but morally/ethically and legally, there are none.

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Some would say it's OK to steal from renderers who are selling used oil to biodiesel producers who then ship it to Europe with the help of a $1/gallon US taxpayer subsidy.

Some would say a lot of things. While I would agree with you that companies that do what you are saying are in some ways perpetrating a crime, stealing from them would constitute stooping to their level or worse.

This thread seems to indicate that some homebrewers feel such a powerful entitlement to cheap/free grease that they will create powerful delusions to justify stealing it. Considering themselves enforcers of vigilante justice is one such delusion.

I like what the one poster said about the Golden Rule. People need to remember that. Seriously.

I thought the "golden rule" was the one with the gold, rules.

quote:

Originally posted by UFO:
I thought the "golden rule" was the one with the gold, rules.

No, that's the a**hole version.

quote:

some homebrewers feel such a powerful entitlement to cheap/free grease that they will create powerful delusions to justify stealing it.

That sums it up nicely, stealing is still stealing, no matter how justified one may feel.

Original Question-Is it stealing? Yes it is stealing. To take something that does not belong to you is stealing. This country operates off of a system of "Reasonable and prudent". It is not reasonable and prudent to take somehting you have no permission to take.

quote:

Originally posted by wal1809:
Original Question-Is it stealing? Yes it is stealing. To take something that does not belong to you is stealing. This country operates off of a system of "Reasonable and prudent". It is not reasonable and prudent to take somehting you have no permission to take.

The original question was not just if it is stealing but if it is stealing before the collected product has been paid for by the rendering company.



"Unlike not too long ago Restaurants in this area now are getting paid by the company collecting their oil. This collecting company (Griffin) has stickers on their dumpsters claiming it is theft to take "their" oil out of the dumpsters.

Now here is what I think regarding that sticker:

How can they claim the oil still sitting in the dumpsters being theirs since they pay the restaurants by volume AFTER it has been collected!

As long as it is not paid for, it ain't theirs?"

quote:

In the absence of a contract, is there any difference, possible value aside, between what sits in an oil dumpster and what sits in a trash dumpster?

Lol. In that case take the trash home along with the oil! Double score!

B100Hans,

I have spent a lot of time in this thread explaining to you why your belief that "as long as it is not [physically] paid for [yet], it ain't theirs" is wrong.

If your complaint really is about the wording, then give Griffin a call, and see what they tell you.

quote:

Originally posted by kumar:
B100Hans,

I have spent a lot of time in this thread explaining to you why your belief that "as long as it is not [physically] paid for [yet], it ain't theirs" is wrong.

If your complaint really is about the wording, then give Griffin a call, and see what they tell you.

It is not a believe nor a complaint, just a question. (not even a worry since we have our own and secured/safe collection containers)

Hans

quote:

Originally posted by UFO:
I thought the "golden rule" was the one with the gold, rules.

In the United States this is the rule. This country is run by a few very wealthy people. My question is what about the folks who take plastic water bottles out of trash cans on trash day and take them to the recycle center? What about the folks who take old electrical wire from dumpsters and recycle it? By the letter of the law it is stealing but quite a few folks are doing it with little or no repercussions.

Jim Smetona,

At the risk of sounding like a very broken record, it's all about perceived value. Those things have little perceived value, so people don't care. Once something is seen as valuable, people care about it more, and theft of it becomes a MUCH bigger issue.

Whether homebrewers like it or not, there are existing chains of custody for most grease-generating facilities, and the "owners" in that chain will start to become a lot more possessive about their grease, as its value as an alternative source of BTUs for transportation goes up.

Taking something that isn't yours is stealing!

Driving 65 mph in a 55 mph zone is speeding.

You may be able to do both without anyone caring, but if they do care, then you will have to suffer the consequences.

Kumar, never try to teach a pig to sing: it wastes your time and it annoys the pig.

You're right. I think I need to take a little break from this thread.

When oil is placed in a container provided by a contracted collector, it is assumed to be theirs via said contractural agreement, whether the 90 days biling period is up or not.

Besides, how do YOU know it hasn't been paid for ? Maybe they've contracted for a monthly payment, maybe trimester, maybe a bunch of things. It is irrelevant where you are concerned.

If a detail is not spelled out in a written contract it is deemed to not exist. A verbal contract is considerably more tricky to deal with, especially if the restaurant and collector gang up on you 'cause you are being a nuissance.

Unless there is a specific exclusivity clause the restaurant is free to enter into a contract with as many collectors as it deems fit to acquire the services it seeks.

Before the oil hits the collection container it still belongs to the restaurant barring a specifically worded exclusivity agreement, and they are free to put it in any approved container they care to.

That sounds like a lawyer talking, lol

quote:

Originally posted by Paulus:
That sounds like a lawyer talking, lol

And so it is, but you will find a lawer in NZ, Aus or Bangladesh will tell you the same thing.

If it is not yours and you do not have permission to take it, walk away.

Kumar,
As I see that in fact you are a collector/ commercial Bio producer, your tirades are understandable as you have an vested interest towards a certain outlook and this obviously puts a great bias on your objectivity. I am sorry if my remark about Rednecks offended you, I am sure you are completely different as illustrated by the comments you have so eloquently posted here so far.

It is in fact your own ( Biased) arguments that make no sense. In reality, both trash and oil are a waste and unwanted product from the restaurants operation and something they wish to dispose of. The potential value that the waste may hold, I believe is in fact irrelevant because the oil may be worthless for instance to a paper recycler where the empty cardboard boxes would be of great potential value. Same goes for empty tins to a scrap metal recycler where the other two items may be worthless.

I may well be incorrect on the specifics of US law, but here, EVERYTHING has a value and everything belongs to someone. I suspect that it is likely the same in other places, but your own assertions of one having value and the other not are based on what YOU are deeming to be valuable and what is not, based purely on your own interests, not what the LAW states which is possibly very different.

As far as I am concerned, unless those people using Veg pay all their taxes on the veg/Bio they make and follow the letter of the law, ( Isn't using Bio or Veg technically illegal in the US or most parts of it through not being an EPA tested fuel and what about processing waste material on premises not so approved to do so and all the other regulations people ignore that they could be prosecuted for??), Then I don't see that anyone has a moral right to tell others what they should and shouldn't be doing when in fact, they are choosing what laws they follow and break themselves.

For other people who want to get all high and mighty over what is right and wrong, make sure that you have no skeletons in your own closet before going and chastising others for choosing which laws they decide are acceptable for them to obey or they decide to ignore the same as you are doing.

As I see it, if everyone obeyed the letter of the law, no one ( or only the barest handful of people) would be able to run their cars on veg at all. This makes me wonder why people make so much fuss about observing one law relevant to veg oil use when the same people knowingly break so many others?
Seems very hypocritical to me.

DCS, you are correct. EVERYTHING has a value to someone...Evidently, OIL has MORE value than plastic bottles because of DEMAND. So therefore, companies and some homebrewers are WILLING to PAY for what they value...that is the used oil...not the plastic bottles. So this WVO has also become valuable to the Restaurant owners who have signed contracts with collectors for $$$$. As much as we do not like having to pay for what was once a waste, we must respect the rest. owner and NOT steal from him. If you want the oil ante' up...that's the free market...

The restaurant owners do not consider their empty beer, wine and liquor bottles as 'waste', though at one time they did. Neither is used VO considered 'waste' when it becomes a useful commodity where the demand exceeds the supply.

One could be charged with theft if they were caught behind the restaurant loading used booze bottles into their vehicle, so loading used VO wouldn't be much different.