My buddy and I have our own agreements/containers with restaurants, we don't need to pump our oil from commercial collection dumpsters.

Unlike not too long ago Restaurants in this area now are getting paid by the company collecting their oil. This collecting company (Griffin) has stickers on their dumpsters claiming it is theft to take "their" oil out of the dumpsters.

Now here is what I think regarding that sticker:

How can they claim the oil still sitting in the dumpsters being theirs since they pay the restaurants by volume AFTER it has been collected!

As long as it is not paid for, it ain't theirs?


What do you think?

Thanks for your opinion, Hans
PS: Maybe a lawyer has some 'de facto' input on this?

This message has been edited. Last edited by: B100Hans,

If you set your own container and I took oil out of your container would you consider me a thief? I would consider myself a thief. I wish I could make myself think it would be ok to take the grease in the render's dumpster cause there is a lot to be had but whether they pay for the oil or it is free its still an agreement they have between the collector and the establishment.

quote:

tjbeggs

My question was regarding legality, not moral.

Legality is what it boils down to, agree?

Hans

What you have outlined is definitely illegal. Consider the following:

If you own a house, and one of your friends leaves something there, I can't just break in and take it, even if I have the tacit approval of that friend. It's called breaking and entering, not to mention trespassing, and it's against the law, even if you left a window or door open. For it to not be against the law, I have to have YOUR permission, as the owner of the house

NOTE: the "you" in this analogy directly correlates to the owner of the container of grease in your real world situation- the oil collector, as long as there is no explicit contract with the collector.

If there IS an explicit contract with the collector, then the oil clearly becomes the property of the collector the moment it goes into the container, and it is not only breaking and entering/trespassing, but it is also clearly theft.

Finally, some oil collectors explicitly state in their contracts that the used oil can't go to anyone else. In those cases, it's their property even before it hits the container.

BTW, grease collectors are getting more and more possessive of their grease, and they WILL go after thieves. So I recommend you try to do things more legitimately.

Some people get home heating oil replenished on an automatic delivery schedule. The HHO gets deposited in the customer's tank. It takes a few days for the billing department to send out the bill and then the customer has a few weeks to pay it. Before the oil is paid for someone comes along without permission and pumps the heating oil out of the tank and drives away with it. If it was not yet paid for was it stolen?

Ken

quote:

Originally posted by Bunk:
Some people get home heating oil replenished on an automatic delivery schedule. The HHO gets deposited in the customer's tank. It takes a few days for the billing department to send out the bill and then the customer has a few weeks to pay it. Before the oil is paid for someone comes along without permission and pumps the heating oil out of the tank and drives away with it. If it was not yet paid for was it stolen?

Yes- from the HHO supplier, not the customer. That's just a chain-of-custody issue. The HHO supplier has a paper trail of what was delivered, and that is the proof that they have left their property there, pending a transaction. There's also a case that could be made for trespass and breaking and entering against the HHO customer.

Translation: there are a lot of laws out there designed to protect transactions and transactors, and people who try to test them are generally breaking those laws.

I'm not a lawyer, but a good friend of mine is. We discussed this some weeks ago as it was a topic brought up previously and he says - paraphrased:

"Look at it like this: say you wanted to sell your house and commissioned a realtor to sell it for you, but within a month you have opportunity and you sell it yourself. Would you consider yourself avoided owing the realtor his fee or would you consider your 'contract' still valid? If you follow your conscience, the answer is obvious.

Many times, courts look for a 'meeting of the minds' to establish a contractual agreement, whether in writing or verbally. The 'contract' could be successfully argued to exist when and because the renderer has, with the proprietor's permission, situated his collection container upon the establishment's property for the purpose of the renderer's collection convenience."

Do the right thing. Get your own collection container.

quote:

Originally posted by R. Keith Davis:
...
Do the right thing. Get your own collection container.

Keith, just for clarification purposes. As I stated in my original post:
My buddy and I have our own agreements/containers with restaurants, we don't need to pump our oil from commercial collection dumpsters.

A "contract" exist where there is "consideration" in both directions. In the case of oil pick up the renderer has a contract with the restaurant to get oil and the restaurant gets money. he contract does not have to be written down either, it can be verbal (as long as ther two parties will testify to it's existance).
There is nothing stopping a restaurant to enter into a seperate and equally valid contract with any number of collectors though, baring of course an exclusivity clause in the original contract.
With two authorised collectors you have the potential for theft by one or the other of the collectors; and it IS theft due to the existance of aforementioned contractural agreements.
The oil is in a drum that has the renderer's name on it, it is his. The only time this would not be so is if the renderer put the drum there without the restaurant's permission to do so.

quote:

Originally posted by R. Keith Davis:
Do the right thing. Get your own collection container.

Yes, but just putting a container there, even with verbal permission from the restaurant owner, will not spare you possible harassment, if not prosecution, from the oil collector, especially if they have a legal contract with the facility.

To really avoid problems, you have to have your own legal contract and/or open communication with all the parties, somehow. It's hard work, but that's the deal.

quote:

Originally posted by B100Hans:

quote:

tjbeggs

My question was regarding legality, not moral.

Legality is what it boils down to, agree?

Hans

Not for me. I am a Pastor so I have more to satisfy than the Governments Laws. But I still think the Courts would see a good case to consider a person taking grease from a dumpster a thief.

oops double post

quote:

Originally posted by tjbeggs:

quote:

Originally posted by B100Hans:

quote:

tjbeggs

My question was regarding legality, not moral.

Legality is what it boils down to, agree?

Hans

Not for me. I am a Pastor so I have more to satisfy than the Governments Laws. But I still think the Courts would see a good case to consider a person taking grease from a dumpster a thief.

tjbeggs I understand what you are saying but keep in mind the law is what a deciding factor in front of a judge.

Hans

It bothers me if this is what things have come to: people splitting hairs over the definition of stealing.

I know fuel is expensive, but that is no justification for anyone to consider defying the laws of common decency, let alone the laws of the land.

There are going to be lots of justifications for theft as prices increase.

Some would say it's OK to steal from renderers who are selling used oil to biodiesel producers who then ship it to Europe with the help of a $1/gallon US taxpayer subsidy.

I know where you are coming from Hans. I get enough oil myself but if I didn't, I can't say I would be all that worried about taking oil from dumpsters myself. ( Those morally offended, save your flames, you have your standards, I have mine and so don't care about what anyone else thinks.)

I don't know much about the legal aspect but I would suggest that you would have to look at each case individually. I would guess it would depend on what each contract specifically said and what was in fact covered and if there even was a contract of any worth in the first place.

What I read of these collectors gels perfectly with my own experience in that the collectors overwhelmingly are a bunch of redneck cowboys and I find it highly likely that a lot of them wouldn't be bothered ( or able to read) any written contract and any verbal agreement is likely to be very open to interpretation and have a lot of loop holes regarding unspecified specifics when put under the microscope.

The trick of course to your legality in taking oil would come down to if there was a contract, getting a hold of it to see what it did cover and then checking any " Laws of the land" to see what the specific rules said about the situation there. I know here that there are specifics regarding what is considered property, who's property it is considered to be and who may be able to take it legally and when they cannot.

One thing I do wonder about in relation to taking WVO is if the same rules apply either legally or more important, morally, to the case of if someone were to take the trash from an industrial skip bin. Here in Sydney, contracts are rare for oil collection to the point of virtually non existent with the exception of the few collectors that charge to take away the waste oil, mainly from bigger clubs and shopping centers.

In the absence of a contract, is there any difference, possible value aside, between what sits in an oil dumpster and what sits in a trash dumpster? Likewise, would any contractor get upset or even threaten to prosecute if some "amateur" interest group found value in the rubbish they have to haul away and dispose of and started taking that out of the bins and doing something environmentally responsible with it?

I sure as hell cant see that happening here and I have some contacts and insight into the waste industry but perhaps things are different elsewhere. If there is a difference between oil and trash, what is it? If it's just the value, then it seems to me the contractors want it all their own way. They would prosecute over one thing but not another when that in all likely hood, may be stealing as well. If this were the case, seems to undermine their credibility to me if nothing else.

This topic comes up so often and the message that taking grease from dumpsters is such a no-no is always espoused. It's great that all veg users have such high standards and would never do anything at all wrong unlike almost everyone has experienced with the collectors at some stage who have no problems with ripping off whatever they can and treat other peoples property with complete contempt and disdain even though they demand everyone else respect and unfailingly do the right thing by them.... Which of course they unquestionably should but some with less stringent moral standards may recall the old phrase of "Do unto others" and be happy to do what others have done to them..... which of course would be wrong wouldn't it?

Just as it would be a mortal sin to take anything from a grease dumpster, I'm sure every one holds the same high standards for everything else they do in their lives and never pick or choose any laws they chose to obey or not.... Things like speeding on the roads, always declare and pay tax on every drop of Bio they make or WVO they burn,( because I believe in many parts you can be prosecuted if you don't), always run back to the grocery store to pay for an item they find they weren't charged for, go to the police station and turn in the $5 they found in the street that some needy person may have dropped, never park in a no standing zone or over stay their parking meter in the hope they will get away with it, But always live pure and perfectly honest lives.

We can all choose our own moral standards and the code by which we choose to live by (even to the point of which laws we obey and which we break)and even if some of my thoughts may be " impure" to some people, I'm happy enough in myself and to live with my own actions.


It's great to be a part of such an honest community that has some much regard for those that have no such standard or regard for them and further shows what a great bunch of people veg users are. I'm sure in this regard such honesty will get them a long way and be rewarded with equally good acts of respect from the collectors

I have an idea that I plan on using later when I get proficient at processing.

A contract usually has a specific time frame, correct? I don't know what that is, but probably 1-2 years. And there may be other fine print that would allow someone to get out of a contract prematurely. I plan on becoming good acquaintances with some good mom and pop restaurant owners (that have renderer's dumpsters behind their place) and when timing is right let them know I would be glad to compete with the big corporations for their business. They will already know that I eat there on a regular basis with my family. If I also have to pay even 50 cent/gallon it may be worth it just to STICK IT TO THE OTHER MAN!!!

What do ya'll think? We gotta beat these guys at their own game....huh...

I have read several actual contracts signed by restaurant owners (The owners were not fluent in english and had no idea what the contract said) only one was an exclusive contract.

It all comes down to that golden rule:

Do unto others what you would have others do unto you

-or-

Treat others as you wish to be treated

-or-

What goes around comes around

Legal? Moral? dunno

Common sense - definately

quote:

Originally posted by kumar:

quote:

Originally posted by R. Keith Davis:
Do the right thing. Get your own collection container.

Yes, but just putting a container there, even with verbal permission from the restaurant owner, will not spare you possible harassment, if not prosecution, from the oil collector, especially if they have a legal contract with the facility.

To really avoid problems, you have to have your own legal contract and/or open communication with all the parties, somehow. It's hard work, but that's the deal.

I would find exception to that because under normal pickup contracts, until the owner places the refuse into the bins, whether it's oil, food scraps, paperboard, or floor sweepings, it is the owner's property and they can decide what to do with it and how to discard it.

One of the few exceptions may be if the owner is obligated to provide a certain poundage of refuse to meet their contractural agreement, and/or the renderer and owner has specifically agreed to an exclusive "right" to pick up. The establishment owner will know if either exists.

Absent those, the owner retains the right to decide.