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B100 use in post-injection modern diesels, leading to high engine wear
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I'm fairly certian that the newer diesel are not going to like WVO/SVO oil systems. There all High Pressure CR's and WVO never truly gets down to the viscoity of diesel, no matter at what temp...


You're half right. I agree that the new finicky designs aren't likely to get along with SVO/WVO too well, but the fact is that a university experiment (not a study) proved that rapeseed oil sprays like diesel at 150 degrees C (not F as most mistakenly believe).

The experiment was called A.C.R.E.V.O. (something like Advanced Combustion Research Energy Vegetable Oil). I'll post a link if anyone is interested.

Veggie oil IS fuel. No tranesterification necessary (in an agreeable engine).

Super high efficiency engines that need very thin ULSD may have their place as temporary measures, but to achieve total renewable energy, we need tidal, solar, geothermal, algae/oilseed oils. Even good stuff like properly operated uranium reactors and clean coal power plants aren't renewable, so they are also temporary.

The old CAT engines weren't as efficient as todays TDI plants, but they were IDI (good for SVO) and had really tough in-line IPs.
 
Registered: September 26, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I don't think it's so much the common rail pressure that is being troublesome. Did you read the article linked in the very first post of this discussion?



I've heard that some people have successfully converted common rail engines to run on veggie oil. I haven't followed that too closely, so I don't know how long-term their success was, but I'd like to know more.

Since the Powerstroke engine uses something like a hydraulic pump to step up pressures before injectors, then solenoid actuated injectors to inject, I'm wonding if the electrically controlled injectors could be electronically tuned to advance injection when running on veggie and inject normally when burning ULSD?

They say that veggie likes more time for more complete combustion (advanced by about 3 degrees), that's why it would be nice to be able to tune injection for either fuel. That's where electronic systems are nicer than mechanical injection (I confess, I still like durable mech systems for their relative simplicity and compatability with SVO fuelling).


In the unlikely event of a large scale EMP attack, my old 1988 F-250 IDI will keep purring along, while electronically controlled CI engines and SI engines will be littering the ditches. I just wouldn't be able to shut it off, or I have a hard time starting again. Can an electronically controlled CI engine be push started after an EMP has knocked out the computer?
 
Registered: September 26, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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You can tune and play with timming on the new diesels(even old ones for that matter). I have timming on mine. I dont know how much, cause the program software buyin is like 25K. I just pay the guy who knows what he is doing and he sets me up.
 
Location: Pittsburgh Pa | Registered: March 04, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Originally posted by Bunk:
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Originally posted by William Brown:
What are these issues I keep hearing about with common rail injection systems run on B100?

quote:
If there isn't proof that B100 causes problems in common rail systems then maybe a biodiesel forum shouldn't help perpetuate that urban myth? Maybe?



I don't think it's so much the common rail pressure that is being troublesome. Did you read the article linked in the very first post of this discussion?

Ken



I did read the article. But that isn't what I'm responding to. My issue isn't with cylinder wetting and premature wear. It's with the now oblgatory mantra that B100 causes problems in common rail injection systems. I would think that without some kind of demonstatable proof that the denizens of the biodiesel forum should just stop repeating it.

As far as post chamber injection and regen cycles are concerned I found a link in another forum about DPFs and biodiesel.

http://www.nrel.gov/docs/fy06osti/39606.pdf

Basically, concentrations of >B20 are going to cause more regen cycles due to a lower balance point temp. However, in those concentrations particulate matter is reduced by 67% over petro-diesel. I guess I can up the oil change interval for a 67% particulate reduction.
 
Location: Hampton, Va | Registered: May 02, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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You can tune and play with timming on the new diesels(even old ones for that matter). I have timming on mine. I dont know how much, cause the program software buyin is like 25K. I just pay the guy who knows what he is doing and he sets me up.



Yes, I know that inj timing can be tuned on both mech and digi timed injection systems, but on the mech timed systems, you can't adjust inj timing while driving.

I'm saying that other than greater efficiency, one other advantage the digi systems have is that they may be able to advance inj timing by 3 degrees when switching over from B100 or ULSD to SVO/WVO. They can do this while driving, no tools required. If I optimise my 1988 F-250 IDI for veggie by advancing my inj by 2 or 3 degrees, then it won't be properly timed for ULSD or B100. The didis can adjust automatically when the fuel system is switched to veggie.
 
Registered: September 26, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Originally posted by William Brown:
My issue isn't with cylinder wetting and premature wear. It's with the now oblgatory mantra that B100 causes problems in common rail injection systems. I would think that without some kind of demonstatable proof that the denizens of the biodiesel forum should just stop repeating it.
Fair enough. I thought we were discussing post injection re-gen systems.
quote:

As far as post chamber injection and regen cycles are concerned I found a link in another forum about DPFs and biodiesel.
http://www.nrel.gov/docs/fy06osti/39606.pdf
Basically, concentrations of >B20 are going to cause more regen cycles due to a lower balance point temp. However, in those concentrations particulate matter is reduced by 67% over petro-diesel. I guess I can up the oil change interval for a 67% particulate reduction.


Good article but they left out some very important information.
They included the ASTM properties of the petroleum fuels they used but didn't include the same data for the biodiesel. Simply saying it meets ASTM D6751 isn't enough. The sulfur level of the biodiesel could be anywhere from 0-500 ppm with up to 200 ppm sulfated ash. That's a huge variance when studying particulate matter. What was the flash point? T-90 distillation temperature? Do you think those little things might have something to do with the BPT?

Ken
 
Location: Sellersville, PA | Registered: May 17, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post



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Originally posted by Bunk:
Good article but they left out some very important information.
They included the ASTM properties of the petroleum fuels they used but didn't include the same data for the biodiesel. Simply saying it meets ASTM D6751 isn't enough. The sulfur level of the biodiesel could be anywhere from 0-500 ppm with up to 200 ppm sulfated ash. That's a huge variance when studying particulate matter. What was the flash point? T-90 distillation temperature? Do you think those little things might have something to do with the BPT?
Ken


I don't know. I'm no chemist that's for sure. In the end, I just don't want to ruin the engine in my $40,000 car.

Maybe we could talk about some preventative maintanence measures that could help control the premature wear issue? I guess more frequent oil changes is the starting point but that could get expensive. Is this a wait-and-see game here or do we have any kind of power to mitigate this issue, short of burning 100% D2?
 
Location: Hampton, Va | Registered: May 02, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I would hold off buying any new diesel that is using this technology.
They inventors will realize the faults in what they have created and it will be scrapped and changed.
The future of all Dino blends include BioDiesel. Like it or not Big Oil.
Auto Manufacturers can get with the program knowing that or be left in the dust.
 
Registered: February 12, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Originally posted by William Brown:
Maybe we could talk about some preventative maintanence measures that could help control the premature wear issue? I guess more frequent oil changes is the starting point but that could get expensive. Is this a wait-and-see game here or do we have any kind of power to mitigate this issue, short of burning 100% D2?


Sorry if I came across in a negative way. I'm just skeptical about the NREL omitting that data. They know darn right well how important that data is in the report. I makes it look like they're hiding something from us. I don't like being manipulated by the people that are supposed to be working in our best interest.

If I had a post-injection DPF system I'd run nothing more than B20 until I got an oil analysis program in place. Once I figured out how long the drain interval can go on B20 I'd bump it up to B50. Then a few oil change intervals later maybe bump it up to B-75 depending on the oil analysis results. I'd be keeping track of the re-gen cycles too. I think if you trash the DPF it won't be the end of the world but if you wipe your bearings out or end up scoring the cylinders your up the creek. But that's just my point of view. After being an aircraft mechanic for 20 years and working in quality assurance I get a bit anal about preventive maintenance schedules.

Ken
 
Location: Sellersville, PA | Registered: May 17, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I get a newsletter from Cummins and came across this article concerning the Cummins Diesel Particulate Filter.

http://list.priceweber.com/cummins/td/operating_tips.html

Interesting read on the Cummins DPF.


2004 Dodge 3500 Cummins - 2008 F-350 w/ DPF delete - Four Farm Tractors - Two Homes. All on B100
 
Location: New Hampshire | Registered: January 27, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Wow...that's way too much "computer nanny" for me to be comfortable with.
 
Location: Southern WI, USA | Registered: May 18, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I saw that a couple of people voiced a concern about the cost of more frequent oil changes. Buying Rotella, 3 gallons and a filter cost me about $40. Running B100 saves me about $400 to $600 per month (4 to 6 tanks of fuel). For me, it a no brainer to change my oil every 4K to 5K miles. That works out to an oil change every 6 to 8 weeks.

Grey


2008 Dodge Ram 2500 6.7L MegaCab 4x4, Edge Juice w/Attitude and love it! Semper Fi
 
Registered: November 12, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post



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A simple question to all who have read the article - In your opinion, is the issue that Post-Injection using biodiesel is the main accelerated wear problem potential, or that biodiesel in and of itself, with or without Post-Injection, will cause accelerated wear due to oil dilution and additive degradation?

I have an '01 Ford 7.3 PSD that I wish not to harm running B100.


'01 F250 7.3 PSD CC on B100
'84 300D on B100
 
Location: NE OKLAHOMA | Registered: February 19, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Its the biodiesel with Post-injection. Due to the cooler nature of the combustion chamber during post injection, that the fuel injected Post-style is not MEANT to burn in the engine (but, rather, the particle filter), and BD's higher flash point, too much of it gets into the oil pan and then dilutes the oil and neutralizes the additives.
 
Location: Southern WI, USA | Registered: May 18, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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^^^^ Yes, what Ryan P. said.


'05 CRD B100
'01 TDi B100

 
Location: Colorado | Registered: March 20, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Which all of this appears to be simply rectified by more frequent oil changes.

What do you all think , change at 5K?


2004 Dodge 3500 Cummins - 2008 F-350 w/ DPF delete - Four Farm Tractors - Two Homes. All on B100
 
Location: New Hampshire | Registered: January 27, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I've had it with all of this epa regulated garbage. I'm not at all sure that cleaning the air at the expense (in both money as well as oil resources) of fuel is a good exchange for anyone. I'm buying a dpf delete kit Monday and I wont have to worry about this junk. it removes the dpf and stops the regen cycle...no more fuel dumped in the exhaust. I know...it may void my warranty and it's against the law.

Grey

This message has been edited. Last edited by: grey,


2008 Dodge Ram 2500 6.7L MegaCab 4x4, Edge Juice w/Attitude and love it! Semper Fi
 
Registered: November 12, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Guys, I hate to be the barer of bad news however there is a legitimate concern when running Biodiesel in quantities greater than 5% in the new diesel engines (cummins, ford and volkswagen).

See this article in Biodiesel Magazine for the details: Understanding the Post Injection Problem

The bottom line is that dino-fuel doesn't burn cleanly so soot is produced. This soot gets in the oil and in the exhaust and inparticularly in the catalytic converter. So diesel engine manufacturers have decided to help the catalytic converter out by placing a soot collection screen in the exhaust path prior to the cat. Then as the differential pressure changes with screen plugging a "regeneration cycle" initiates.

This injects fuel into the compression chamber during the exhaust stroke the dino diesel combust burning out the exhaust stream and burning the soot off the catalytic converters protection screen.

Well that is all well in good until you put Biodiesel into the mix since it is more viscous and doesn't combust as readily it tends to coat the piston chamber during this regeneration cycle and then gets squeeged by the multiple piston rings off the cylinder walls, right into the crank case oil - BAD!!!!

This dilutes the motor oil significantly according to Volkswagen and therefore requires the oil to be changed out more regularly than they would like or intend with anything more than B5...(45% dilution in 10,000 miles).


What we at Arbor Biofuels Company are currently testing is if this theory actually holds up with higher biodiesel concentrations. There are several consideration; of them we think the biggest is that since biodiesel is much cleaner burning it is possible that in much higher percentages like B20 and above, the soot build-up on the catalytic screen should be much less and therefore not require a "regeneration cycle."

We have evidence that we believe proves this and are currently having samples tested to substantiate our belief...

If we are correct! It is some how ironic that diesel engine manufacturers finally care enough about clean burning diesel to address the problem with this regeneration cycle which they may claim prohibits larger percentages of biodiesel -- when it is exactly this burning of biodiesel in larger percentages that could have solved the problem in the first place.

As a last sad point: the regeneration cycle reduces fuel economy and requires a very sophisticated engine which in the some of the new Ford's cost $15,000.00 (just the engine if you needed to replace it).

GCG
 
Location: Michigan | Registered: May 08, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post



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So the demand for WVO will go down as more and more people replace their vehicles with new ones...and only those smart enough to run and maintain older diesels will be able to, or even need to, collect WVO and make Biodiesel...OK with me as I'm in group #2.

But I still see then new diesel particulate filter and wasted fuel as a colossally stupid idea.
 
Location: Southern WI, USA | Registered: May 18, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Okay, I'm calling BS on this issue. I just got back my first oil analysis for my '08 Jeep GC CRD and I have <0.5 fuel in the oil where <2.0 is the norm and my TBN is 5.3 which means there is plenty of additive left. Here's a quote from the report:

quote:
WILLIAM: Slightly high silicon was found in this initial sample from your Mercedes Benz engine, but everything else looks normal. Silicon can be from airborne dirt getting past the air filter, so you might want to have that checked. Wear metals were generally around average, so the silicon may be additive instead of dirt (dirt causes higher metals). Regardless, the engine in your Grand Cherokee looks good and is mostly past wear-in already. That's impressive. They must have worn white gloves when they built this one. The TBN read 5.3, still strong. Try 5000 miles next.


I changed the oil when I did, 4282, because I had nothing else to do in automotive lab, I'm getting my Associates in Automotive Technology. I'll change again at 5,000 and see if I can go farther.

I've driven to DC (6 hour round trip) 5 times on that oil so I've done at least one regen, probably more. If there was too much bio getting into the oil and leaching the additives then this report would've found it.

This is yet another example of how a falsehood becomes established truth. Even in the original article there was a stunning lack of proof. Let's provide some proof before we accept it as fact.
 
Location: Hampton, Va | Registered: May 02, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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