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Biodiesel stability and new engines like the BlueTEC
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So as not to clutter ricks epic thread, 'Ricks link of the day' his latest link is upsetting to me: http://breakingenergy.com/2014...enge-fame-biodiesel/
The article is somewhat conflicting, it states that stability and quality is a major hurdle for engine mfg's but then it also says
quote:
In the case of Mercedes-Benz, their advanced BlueTEC diesel engines inject some fuel on the exhaust stroke, but since biodiesel has a higher flash point than petroleum diesel, the biodiesel does not combust allowing the biodiesel to collect inside the crankcase of the engine itself. This crankcase sludging is irreversible and over time can lead to catastrophic engine failure.


Which really has nothing to do with fuel quality but rather the design of the engine.
That sucks! That is the engine in the new Dodge 1/2 ton pickup as well as the Jeep GC and Mercedes-Benz SUV's if I am not mistaken...
What a shame, finely there are more diesel options on the market but due to the poor design they wont operate well on our fuel... One step forward and 2 back...
Jon
 
Location: Wellington County, Ontario Canada | Registered: February 07, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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If the fuel is being sprayed into the exhaust how is it winding up in the crankcase? Perhaps they are injecting it into the cylinder on the exhaust stroke...
Cheers,
Jon
 
Location: Wellington County, Ontario Canada | Registered: February 07, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I found a brochure from Mercedes about bio in the BlueTEC where it gives some more info:
http://www.mbusa.com/vcm/MB/Di...diesel_Brochure5.pdf
It sounds like the same problem as with DPF's so perhaps this can be turned off?
quote:
Engine oil dilution, especially when driving under low load and engine temperature
conditions, because biodiesel is not evaporating from engine oil. Fuel enters the engine oil
during particulate trap regeneration

Cheers,
Jon
 
Location: Wellington County, Ontario Canada | Registered: February 07, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Sorry, I've removed the post from Ricks thread so it doesn't confuse matters.

When after 1 year of running on B100 I remove the fuel filters from my cars, they look as if they have been running on pump fuel, wheras the ones pictured in Ricks latest post look as if someone has tried to run the engines on glycerol!
 
Location: YORK UK | Registered: April 27, 2014Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by Jon Heron:
If the fuel is being sprayed into the exhaust how is it winding up in the crankcase? Perhaps they are injecting it into the cylinder on the exhaust stroke...
Cheers,
Jon


Thats exactly what they do Jon, it's called post injection regeneration. Because Bio doesn't vapourise at the same temp as pump fuel, some passes the rings and ends up in the crankcase.

Talk about advanced technology, some of these designers never seem to think things through. For us bio boys DPF's are the last things we want.
 
Location: YORK UK | Registered: April 27, 2014Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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There are a few companys here in UK that will take out DPF's and re-map the ECU to suit, however if this is spotted at the annual MOT inspection it is a failure! We can't win.
 
Location: YORK UK | Registered: April 27, 2014Reply With QuoteReport This Post



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No need to be sorry! I dont know if Rick cares or not but I figured I would post this separate is all.
Yep my filters always look good too, the worst I have ever seen was in my zoomboom (documented in the Death of a lucas IP thread on here) and it had never seen a drop of bio so go figure...
Cheers,
Jon
 
Location: Wellington County, Ontario Canada | Registered: February 07, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by Jon Heron:
That is the engine in the new Dodge 1/2 ton pickup as well as the Jeep GC and Mercedes-Benz SUV's if I am not mistaken...


Actually, I think the small engine Dodge is using comes from Italy -- VM Motori, maybe? Ever since Mercedes divorced Chrysler, you can bet it's not their engine. Haven't seen a Benz-powered Jeep since around the 2006 model.

It is similar to the engine in the Benz sedans and SUVs, though they dropped the "Bluetec" label a while back in favor of just calling them the CDI. Bluetec wasn't anything more than a marketing consortium, and I'm not sure anyone is left in it -- haven't seen that badge on a vehicle in a good while either. Individual makers felt like it was reducing their ability to brand differentiate -- it didn't make sense to see a Bluetec badge on a Dodge Cummins work truck and also see one on a GL-class luxury Mercedes.

Cheers, John
 
Registered: June 17, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Hi guys, it's OK to post in the link of the day thread. It's good if a link stirs up a side conversation like this one. it shows interest in the thread.

Rick
 
Location: Cowboy Country | Registered: December 06, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Thanks for straitening that out John. I was not even aware of the divorce lol
One of my customers pulled up to a site driving one of those new dodge trucks on Monday and he was telling me how much he loves it. It was -36C Monday morning in New Liskeard and when I pulled out to follow him to the next site the amount of smoke and stench of half burnt kerosene pumping out of that truck just about choked me out, I had to roll down my window, at -36! I think they will need a better tune for cold climates. Eek
He didn't plug it in over night so I was impressed that it even started, though I think he just took 50K off the life of the engine...
Cheers,
Jon
 
Location: Wellington County, Ontario Canada | Registered: February 07, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Good news, it seems the ECOdiesel is rated for up to B20. It says you need to change the oil more frequently is all.
quote:
Oil changes are required as indicated by the engine's oil monitor system, but should not exceed 10,000 miles or 1 year for engines operating on standard diesel or up to B5 biodiesel fuels. For engines operating on B5 - B20 biodiesel, oil changes should not exceed 8,000 miles or 6 months

http://www.dieselhub.com/halfton/ecodiesel.html
I am guessing they will run great on B100 as long as you pay close attention to the oil level and change it out every 5k.
Time will tell as I have been seeing quite a few of these trucks around in this area, as well as a few of the new Chev Cruze cars, somebody must be burning the good stuff in them...
Cheers,
Jon
 
Location: Wellington County, Ontario Canada | Registered: February 07, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Great thread Jon. I produce bio for the local utility system, of which I'm also an employee. We just decided NOT to upgrade my processor and storage capacity due to this very issue. Even heavy equipment is falling prey to this very thing and rendering our bio useless. Fine example of our tax $$'s hard at work. Can't really fault the auto industry, they're just responding to the EPA's emission's standards. Of course they could have come up with a direct injection into the exhaust stream and eliminated the whole, exhaust phase regeneration, but hey, that makes too much sense. If I'm not mistaken, I think one of the Big Three (Ford or GMC I think) did move away from regeneration and go with direct injection. Great topic.
 
Location: The Volunteer State | Registered: July 07, 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post



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quote:
We just decided NOT to upgrade my processor and storage capacity due to this very issue. Even heavy equipment is falling prey to this very thing and rendering our bio useless.


Which issue? Biodiesel quality or engine design problems?



 
Location: coldest N.America | Registered: May 03, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Engine design problems/compatibility. As we replace our fleet and equipment, it isn't compatible due to the whole exhaust phase regeneration/dpf debacle.
 
Location: The Volunteer State | Registered: July 07, 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Thats a real shame Vol!
I would like to see a study on what impact the DPF really has had on pollution.
Is trapping the particulate and then burning it off into the atmosphere really accomplishing anything other than burning more fuel, driving up maintenance costs and breaking compatibility with the fuel of our choice?
Cheers,
Jon
 
Location: Wellington County, Ontario Canada | Registered: February 07, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Can you not get a DEF delete on your engine. A few of my neighbors did that to their 6.7 liter dodge cummins. They installed a kit to remove that emissions exhaust and just put a strait turbo back pipe on them. Apparently their mileage also went up as well one of them installed a programer to increase hp.
 
Registered: June 18, 2014Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Can you not get a DEF delete on your engine.

That's illegal in some jurisdictions that have annual inspections.



 
Location: coldest N.America | Registered: May 03, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Hi case1030

quote:
Originally posted by case1030:
Can you not get a DEF delete on your engine.
The USA EPA really cracked down on DPF delete kits a couple of years ago.
Huge fines for manufacturers.
I think you would have trouble obtaining a DPF delete kit in the USA






 
Location: ลึก ประเทศอินเดีย | Registered: March 03, 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post



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quote:

Originally posted by Jon Heron
I would like to see a study on what impact the DPF really has had on pollution.
Is trapping the particulate and then burning it off into the atmosphere really accomplishing anything other than burning more fuel, driving up maintenance costs and breaking compatibility with the fuel of our choice?


I would too, I've never gotten any straight answer from any engine rep that has wondered through here either. All this DPF, DEF pollution controls are about NOX reduction which is produced in the combustion chamber due to high heat and pressures. so they have reduced the comp ratio, retarded the timing and now cooled egr to get the temps down reducing the efficiency of the diesels and upping the millage. Whats coming out the tail pipe? I don't know but I'm assuming the scr strategy is just converting the nox into something that's not regulated ..... yet. the EPA is all over oxides of nitrogen and it seems to be at the expense of all else

judging by the smell that comes out the tailpipe when the go into regen it ain't good. I heard a rumor that Cat's new engine that came out recently has been pulled from the market since it's not making the emission standards and the def is freezing in the lines now in the cold. western star sent a notice that there will be a recall to address the issue but that was 2 years ago

all the heavy trucks inject into the exhaust and that part is not a complicated system. why the smaller diesels don't is beyond me


21 years off the grid and counting

 
Location: Muskoka, Ont, Can | Registered: March 23, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
all the heavy trucks inject into the exhaust and that part is not a complicated system. why the smaller diesels don't is beyond me


Injecting into the exhaust stroke costs about 3 lines of code in the ECM. Dumping it into the exhaust requires the same 3 lines of code, plus an injector, plus some way to pressurize that injector. If memory serves, GM went to the separate injector on the Duramaxes.

Bill


91 Buick Roadmaster wagon, GM 6.2 diesel conversion (gone but not forgotten
89 GMC 6.2 (Just got rid of the last pieces)
84 Mercedes 300D (gone to the great autobahn in the sky)
94 Cadillac Fleetwood (Sold before I could convert it)
 
Location: Manotick, Ontario Canada | Registered: July 02, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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