I am in the early stages of developping a cold weather system for running exclusively biodiesel in.

Similar in concept to the SVO crowd, but heat not as intense and not as rife with potential disaster points (which is why I ripped mine out). Just in the in-my-head stage right now though but might be a reality by next winter if all goes well between now and then.
OK, here it is (just so it is on paper officially,hehe - gotta watch out for the idea "borrowers" from JtF);

The idea uses a Pollack 6 port valve; there is a second tank involved; the system uses returns to the tank in both cases; it is hose on hose for heat transferance,although along the way a heat exchanger is placed on the delivery side to help boost fuel temperature but not so close to the Pollack so as to cause it to fail;The second tank is heated but not directly as it is with an SVO system where hose or exchnager is actually inside the tank with the oil,this uses a box as a sort of oven to radiate heat to the fuel tank, made of light aluminium; the coolant is used as a heat source,runs hose on hose to the box and then has a grid pattern inside the box attached to the walls and under the floor;the box is insulated of course and contains reflective paper to send heat away from it back into the box;the fuel tank has a plate under it that acts as the floor cover over the radiating heat from below; the radiant heat is transfered using metal pipe not plastic hose, similar to a home made household radiator,where pipes run in a grid of returning loops to give off heat.The heat is controlled by placing ball valves on the coolant line to be turned off at will.

And that is the plans. You heard it here first, haha.

Some background: Some time ago I had posted in several places that using a second heated tank would solve all the winter geling issues we have with biodiesel. Until then all that was ever discussed was "additives". "My" additive is heat :-).

Anyway, a month of postings went on and all of a sudden a "moderator" over at "the other place"
started posting the same information, but not taking time to mention WHERE that information came from leaving the impression that HE had come up with the idea,being the all knowing,all wise guru of everything biodiesel that he likes others to think of him as being (if only the truth were known).

So, I am now officially posting the ins and outs of my idea so there will be a time stamp on it.Thank you for your patience in reading this long post.

**My idea will not work with straight vegetable oil as the heat is insufficient to achieve the needed viscosity decrease but plenty hot to keep the biodiesel clear and flowing.

Legal,

I made my own hot stick out of standard steel pipe and various plumbing fitting. The tank is mounted in the pickup bed and the hot stick goes up through the bed and into the bottom of the tank. Basically it is a 1/2" coolant pipe open at the top that runs up through a 1" pipe that is a little taller and closed at the top. This all enters the tank through a 2" T and a 2" nipple welded to the bottom of the tank. With some creative use of fittings and a little welding the two coolant lines, fuel supply line and low point drain all end up underneath the bed.

My system uses a hot head filter and a set of metal solenoid valves from greasecar. I do not use hose in hose and have not had any problems even with a very cold winter up here in the Northeast. I do use a regulated return system which seems to give me pretty quick purges without the need for an additional solenoid.

Good luck,
Scott

I don't think you would even need to go with a FPHE. Hose on hose might be a good idea.... What i recommend would be to plumb some form of coolant heating system to your 2nd tank (or honestly, you could just modify your existing tank and rig a heater switch to shut off coolant flow). Get a circulation style block heater... not the kind that goes in the freeze out plug, but rather the one that has a little pump in it that will warm the coolant and send it back to the 2nd tank thus warming it.

You really don't need to get it that hot... 35F maybe as opposed to 230+F which some SVO guys go for. I would wonder if there is any performance or fuel stability issues caused by heating bio past normal climate temp prior to injection?

So really if you went with Hose on Hose, a circulation style AC coolant heater, and a heated fuel pick up (as opposed to a whole tank heater), you would probably never need to mix bio blends providing that you plugged the thing in an hour before you had to use it, and didn't let it set for more than a couple hours in the cold..... well, that's what the first tank and the pollack is for isn't it? hehehe!

Do you think, with a little thought, this second heated tank could be made completely self contained, with just a hook up into the fuel system and one plug for the electronics?

I ask because I don't want to sacrifice my truck bed space to a second tank year round. But in the winter, I throw a few hundred pounds of sand in the back anyway and don't haul much then either. If I had a single split tank, half coolant half biodiesel, with a build in circulating heater (12V...or 110 w/ a power converter maybe) in the coolant loop circulating warm coolant into the other side until it thawed out. If the feed from BD tank to fuel line was short enough (6"?), I could probably get by without heating it.

Put one switch for the valve and an electric temperature gage in the cab, and I'd be good to go! The whole thing could be unplugged from the cab and the valve and stored all summer, then dropped in the truck for winter use.

Hmmmmmm.....

Of course, I'd have to have an indoor, heated brewing area to even HAVE biodiesel in the winter...but its fun to "bench race".

The idea is to have ball valves at the coolant line junctions under the bonet (hood) and control heat flow from there,although with the use of a couple in-line check valves the entire thing can become removable in minutes.
My "heated" tank is an aluminium tank (20Lt) sitting inside a box and on the inside walls of the box is black iron piping, but just enough to generate a summer like environment, nowhere near the amount of heat required to run an SVO system. It is essentially the same principle but not as heat intensive. My heat exchnager goes on the return line feeding hot fuel back to the tank and the entire system is switched using a 6 port Pollack valve (like the ones Ford used on their 2 tanks trucks).
Mine sleep indoors so start up will be B100 and the onlt time I will need to purge on stopping will be if the car will sit for any extended period of time.If the car sleeps out of doors then a stop purge/switch back will be needed each time you shut down for the night.
I do not plan on using seperate filters and this will make the whole set up much much simpler; just connect the fuel lines to the Pollack and the wiring to the switch inside the car and good to go.
To fancy it up you can include a sender unit so you don't run out of fuel,and a temp guage along the fuel line to be certain that it is above gel point for that fuel.Hose on hose all the way from tank to Pollack valve (you can also get the fancy 3 port ones from Frybrid to adapt to this system).
This is for a B100 winter system, so only a couple lengths of black iron inside the tank and running under the tank would be more than enough. The amount of heat required will depend on the type of feedstock oil the BD was made from. The heat flow can be somewhat controlled by the ball vaves on the coolant lines in the engine bay. This can be done manually or with electric solenoids; I prefer hands on.
Keeping a few cubies at a time of finished fuel in the house where it is warm and then just roptating as you use it would be enough.
BD does not require the amount of heat that an SVO system does. Liquid soy, that gels at or around 0C (32F) would only need to have a system that keeps everything a 5C (40F) or so to be fully functional even in the dead of winter, and of cource the smaller the spare tank the easier it is to heat up quickly. Returning the fuel through a heat exchanger just before the tank will help accomplish this quite quickly and then the radiant heat from the hose on hose on the colant lines will keep the fuel sufficiently warm and fluid all the way to the IP.
In my case the engine gives off quite a bit of heat and that radiates over to the fuel filters to keep them warm even when it is quite cold (I have a thermometer set on top of the prefilter and get readings constantly on the dash mounted readout). I am of the opinion that this system or a variant of same is the ultimate answer to extreme cold weather biodiesel use. Technically, if the engine were never turned off you could run B100 all winter and not worry about it.The combination of heated tank, heated hose on hose delivery, heat exchnger before the tank and radiant heat from the engine will all work together to insure that the fuel in the filters never gets cold enough to gel, even if driving in VERY cold temps.
I will have all the factual answers to this next Spring after running a full winter on this type set up. The tank is being built soon and the rest is already in the car except for the return fuel line which will take all of about 1/2 hour to do.I left it all inpllace after removal of the SVO system I had so it won't take long to set up.

Any way we could convince you to draw up a schematic of your idea?

I'm very interesting in seeing how this turns out. I've been mulling over various ideas for a winter system, just haven't found a system that I really like yet.

I'd like to stay away from plumbing rather large and cumbersome coolant lines (plus the added danger of extra leaks or holes in the hoses.).

quote:

Any way we could convince you to draw up a schematic of your idea?

Ever play "Hangman " ? That's the extent of my ability to draw ...
I do have a pretty good digital camera though and plan on taking pics and building a webpage on on my site.I also have a pretty good image/text editor so I can ID what goes where. That should give a pretty good idea of it.
As far as hoses go; unless you plan on going electric with pads and a converter with electric fuel line heaters and fuel filter there is not really any other way to do it.
Contrary to the majority of SVO systems the coolant lines in my design do not ever come in contact with the fuel; they serve to produce radiant heat that acts like an oven in which the tank sits. The fuel lines run hose on hose on the coolant lines for additional heat on the way to the IP and as an additional heat source I have a heat exchanger on the fuel return line. This helps to heat up the fuel in the tank all that much quicker, and keep it that way.
Essentially what the design does is create an artificial summer environment for the fuel, and as we know it only takes a very little heat to keep BD flowing.
Try to picture a box made out of wood. Inside the box, on it's walls, are a couple lengths of black iron pipe running along it's sides and floor (not many, just a couple). The box is lined with a heat reflective aluminium sheet. Ok, so now you have an oven. Into the box goes your fuel tank (aluminium) with it's floor sticking out a little on both sides and back so it can sit on top of a false floor in the box hiding the heating pipes. Now you have your tank siting on top of a heat source (the piepes under it) and there is heat coming from both walls of the box as well as from the returning fuel once it has gone through the heat exchanger.Your outlet is on the bottom of one side of the tank and the inlet (return line) is on the opposite side of the tank on top.
Mine will have it's inner floor slanted a bit to one corner so that I can get to the very last few ml's without sucking air.
Mine will also only be 20Lts; this is so that it will minimize weight and also so that it will heat quickly. I will also set up a fuel sender (sender 1 or sender 2)Or some such.

Have you ever thought of using something similar to a shell and tube type of heat exchanger?

I have been thinking over about an electrical type system with the fuel tank wrapped in some sort of insulative material. Not sure what would fit the bill at this time and last the rigors of driving though.

Once the fuel passes from the engine back to the tank, it's usually quite warm on my truck. I'm thinking about getting the system warm and then using some sort of a thermostatic device to hold a temperature.

quote:

Have you ever thought of using something similar to a shell and tube type of heat exchanger?

Something like the one attached ? The fuel goes in one end comes out the other while the coolant goes into the T fittings and flows around it.Compression fittings at either end seal it all up and the ends of the copper tube are flared so the fuel line won't slip off.
This is teh one I used for the SVO system and also the one I will be using on the return line going back to the tank.

exchanger.jpeg (25 Kb, 105 downloads) Coolant Heat Exchanger

A Pollack 6 port electric valve is pretty simple really. It has ports for fuel in fuel out from two different tanks. Ford used them extensively on their 2 tank pick ups.
I would keep the filters where they are and not try to bypass them as is commonly done for SVO so this also simplifies the design.Granted a purge of the can type filter may take awhile but in my case the vehicle sleeps indoors so I am not terribly concerned about it and I will know before going out in the cold if I will be stopped anywhere for any extended periods and act accordingly to ensure that the filters get purged of B100 before shut down.
Attached is a schematic of a Pollack 6 port electric valve. I already have one of these as well from my SVO days.

pollackschematic.jpeg (74 Kb, 91 downloads) How a 5 port valve works

quote:

Originally posted by Legal Eagle:

quote:

Have you ever thought of using something similar to a shell and tube type of heat exchanger?

Something like the one attached ? The fuel goes in one end comes out the other while the coolant goes into the T fittings and flows around it.Compression fittings at either end seal it all up and the ends of the copper tube are flared so the fuel line won't slip off.
This is teh one I used for the SVO system and also the one I will be using on the return line going back to the tank.

Well kinda sorta, that is a really small example of a shell and tube exchanger. My 6.9 has an oil cooler that routes coolant through the shell and oil goes through the tubes.

I have been thinking this over for use in a dual tank ford. It maybe a bit over concerned but, do you think that there maybe an issue with the biodiesel freezing in the six port pollack or fuel lines and breaking them after you switch tanks back to diesel and shut it down for extended periods of time?( like frozen water pipes?)Or is the system (hopefully)set up that once I switch to the tank containing diesel it purges itself of the biodioesel in the other tank? Further more, has anyone experienced a tank breaking due to BD freezing? Some of my freezer experiments produce soilid BD just like ice.

Thanks for your imput, my knowledge on how these valves work is very limited. Dave

quote:

breaking due to BD freezing?

Most substances contract when they freeze/transition to a solid, water being the greatest exception. I believe biodiesel is like most substances, in that it will contract when it freezes. I have blown up a jar of BD, though. I left one sealed and sitting in the sun and it blew from the hot, expanding biodiesel within.

I thought about going a completely different direction.

Use a couple of silicon reptile heater ropes with a cheap inverter. Do the HOH using the rope instead of coolant. I know it won't put out much heat but with insulation it should be a able to keep it above the gelling point of B100.

The trick is to keep the bio above the gelling point. My experience is that once it's gelled it takes a lot more heat to un-gel it than it does to keep it from gelling in the first place.

http://www.reptilesupply.com/product.php?products_id=689
or
http://www.reptilesupply.com/product.php?products_id=688

To heat the tank I would use a small reptile pad. 10-15 watts should be safe even with a plastic tank. The Excursion would be easy to insulate. I am not so sure about my MB or Jetta.

One other factor, I am in TX. A lot warmer than Canada. If it wasn't for my clean great smelling partially hydrogenated donut oil I wouldn't even worry about it.

http://www.reptilesupply.com/product.php?products_id=657
or
http://www.reptilesupply.com/product.php?products_id=1226

OK, so if this is a dumb idea try and not laugh too hard.

my wife and i use a FAR infared sauna like what can be found here: http://www.promolife.com/sauna-spa-hot-tub/personal-far...-sauna/prod_346.html

(unrelated, but they are nice. takes the edge off of a tough day and makes me feel good).

granted it uses 120v power, it only costs about 5 cents to operate it for an hour. i can sit in it becuase of the refelctive insualtion and be at 140f air temp and from the outside it's room temp.

have you considered Far infared as a heat source. i plug my excurison in for the glowplugs, could have an extra plug for this. rig it to target 50f instead of 140f, the only consideratin then would be what to do when you cont plug in. perhaps a 2nd 1/2 gallon tank between your fuel filter and regular full tank. maybe use the battery to warm up the small tank sufficenit to get the vehicel going, and then let the altenator produce the juice to heat up the main tank. as long as you has suffcinet fuel in the small tank to heat the larger one quickly enough.
blurb about FIR is here...http://www.thmi.com/FIR/heater.html
or may be impractical ....

Legal: I've presently driving a system not much different than what you've described, in my Jetta. For the past couple winters I ran B100 in my Mazda in place of the usual SVO, starting and stopping on Diesel. As you've mentioned this has the great advantage over SVO of allowing switch-over at much lower temperature (0C), which occurs about the point I turn onto the paved road. One tank of diesel lasts all winter, reducing my footprint nicely.
The only change I make is to reduce the amount of heat that ultimately goes into the 2nd fuel. The Jetta 2nd tank is warmed only by contact with coolant hose, which makes an S-curve on the bottom, covered with reflective insulation (just as you described above). This easily raises the tank temp above freezing. My filter (Ford 6.9) is mounted to the side of the tank, and has a single loop of heater hose around it. The fuel line between tank and filter is copper, wrapped with an electric heater. A boost pump pushes fuel from tank to filter. So far this winter it's worked perfectly. HIH gets fuel to the engine bay.
At the front, I've extended the header tank return line and routed it along the fuel line HOH, taking some care to keep it tight against the side of the 3-port Pollack "Fuel" valve (a second 3-port "return" valve allows looped return, or return to main tank). At present, no additional heat is used, but I plan to boost IP inlet temperatures a bit for svo, when weather allows.
My biggest problem is thawing my supply tank to refuel with. Today is sunny, and not too windy or cold, so I've wrapped it in tarps and have propane torpedo heater blowing warm air under it ("it" is a pair of 250 gallon steel gravity tanks). The 25-gallon Jetta 2nd tank allows 1500 miles unrefueled, so I don't have to keep the tanks liquid. Solid biodiesel stores remarkably well.
Cheers,
JohnO

johno;
Good for you, you got it beat. The degree of heat required will be affected by feedstock primarily but also by geography, some places being colder than others.
IMO this is the ultimate answer to running B100 year round. That one tank fill would even last longer should the vehicle sleep indoors in a heated garage thereby negating the need for shut down purging.
Nice to see that you've got it working.

OK, so where do you go to get someone to install a system like this? Performance shop? Diesel repair shop? I don;t think the dealer is going to help me out with this.

Setting it up is a bit of a chore but can be done at home;
1- you need to tap into the coolant lines and run 'em back to the tank in the back. In my case it is a "convection box", a wooden box which has the black iron pipes attached to it and teh tank site inside it.
2- you need a tank. aluminium is best 'cause it's lightweight. Keep it small enough to heat easily but not so small that you run out of fuel. I figure 20LT or so is plenty for most commutes.
3- you need a selector valve. Here you can opt for the 6 port Pollack (comes with an on/on switch for selecting) or use two 3 ports from Frybrid or one of the SVO suppliers as this system is basically a rip off of an SVO system but without the need for such high heat.
4- heat resistant braided hose in 3/8 and 3/4. small for fuel large for coolant.

Optional is a remote thermometer whose probe you tape to the tank's outlet and stick the receiver on the dash.This let's you know the temp going on back there. Also optional is a fuel sender to let you know when you are low.

You need to decide if you want to run it inside the vehicle or under it.Inside will be warmer.

Man you did a lot of work and ended up with a half azz 2 tank system. Heat rises. Why did you put black iron pipes on the sides of the tank? They are not doing much. Pipes on the bottom would have been sufficient. Why did you use braided PVC hose for the coolant lines? They will not hold up in the long run and will leak. Radiator hoses are cheap and made for the task and you woudn't have been confused if you used it.