BIODIESEL & SVO DISCUSSION FORUMS






Sponsors    Biodiesel and SVO Forums Home    Forums  Hop To Forum Categories  Biodiesel  Hop To Forums  General Biodiesel Discussion    Biodiesel getting into engine oil

Moderators: Shaun, The Trouts
Go
New
Find
Notify
Tools
Reply
  
Biodiesel getting into engine oil
 Login/Join
 
Member
posted
I read an article that says that biodiesel has a tendency to work its way into the engine oil more than petro diesel over time (via the cylinders if I remember correctly). As a result, you should change your engine oil more frequently.

Has anyone ever heard of this? Comments please!

I have a 2005 VW Passat TDI diesel which requires an oil change every 12K miles per the owners manual.
 
Registered: December 31, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
posted Hide Post
I'm still waiting on the evidence that a bit of biodiesel is more harmful to the oil than diesel. I'm not saying I doubt it. I change my oil more often in my CRD than recommended -- every 5k miles instead of 6.5k. The Mercedes gets an oil change 4x a year, whether it needs it or not (about 3k, speedo's broken).


'05 CRD B100
'01 TDi B100

 
Location: Colorado | Registered: March 20, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
member
posted Hide Post
The only way bio can get into the engine oil is if you have worn rings or cylinders. What people may be intimating is that the use of bio will gum up the rings faster than DinoD. That is a possibility but not one that I have noticed, although my tests have been done using straight WVO (Thousands of hours on stationary engines) . The only other concern is the spray pattern of your injectors - if the pattern is too thick with bio then you "could" get unburnt fuel dribbling down the cylinder walls - this can cause localised wall spalling - again, not likely but possible.


JohnF
 
Location: Bourget, Canada | Registered: December 28, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
member
posted Hide Post
I think this has to do more with the age and quality of the engine than anything else. I have experienced this with an old, and very lemony, forklift. However, I have never heard of this happening with any of the vehicles we've provided fuel for.


Kumar Plocher
Yokayo Biofuels
Yokayo Biofuels Facebook page
.........../ \..............
fueling / R \ evolution since 2001
'''''''''''''/____\'''''''''''''''''''

Sustainable Biodiesel...
 
Location: Ukiah, CA USA | Registered: September 19, 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
posted Hide Post
I've seen pictures of bio in petro lube oil. Not pretty, the oil goes stringly and blocks oil galleries and ruins a motor. There are at least two international makers of vege-based motor oil. Fuchs is one.
 
Location: New Zealand | Registered: August 15, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
posted Hide Post
Biodiesel can get past your rings, but only under certain situations and especially on >=2007 models, here are several recent articles about it:
Warning:danger of using VO/>B5 on many vehicles >=2007

"Volkswagen tests using B5 and post-injection showed 45 percent oil dilution after 10,000 miles"

UFO, these articles contain your evidence that lube oil dilution by bio is bad, it says it breaks down the oils additives causing faster engine wear. Research done by both VW and Cummins.

Besides the post-injection problem on >=2007 models, some bio gets past your rings on every engines cold start since even on new engines the rings don't seal completely until warmed up. So its not just an issue on old worn engines, but its worse on them since more gets by. Most engines got better oil control ring packages starting in 1994 which helps some.


YVORMV - Your veg. oil results may vary, see www.burnveg.com/forum
95 Dodge Cummins 4x4
Zero fossil house- 100% solar power and heat.
 
Location: N. Colorado | Registered: August 31, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post



member
posted Hide Post
Sunwizard, if 45% dilution happens with B5, then that is CLEARLY a diesel problem in general, and not a biodiesel or vegetable oil problem. We all know that B5 is just diesel with an additive.

I just read the Biodiesel Magazine article that you linked to, and I feel like this is BS, as in the industry blowing smoke in order to discourage usage of a fuel they don't like, at least here in America. Coincidence that the new research highlights the benefits of using B5, the blend that VWoA decided to approve quite a long time ago? I think not.

As far as I know, there are a lot of people using these vehicles on high blends of biodiesel, but it would be good to get an idea of the year and models involved- at your links, there are manufacturers listed, but not years and models.

For instance, I own an '06 VW Golf that I've put around 40,000 miles on without any issues. How relevant is any of that to this discussion?


Kumar Plocher
Yokayo Biofuels
Yokayo Biofuels Facebook page
.........../ \..............
fueling / R \ evolution since 2001
'''''''''''''/____\'''''''''''''''''''

Sustainable Biodiesel...
 
Location: Ukiah, CA USA | Registered: September 19, 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
member
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Paulus:
There are at least two international makers of vege-based motor oil. Fuchs is one.


I don't understand the relevance. Please explain.


Kumar Plocher
Yokayo Biofuels
Yokayo Biofuels Facebook page
.........../ \..............
fueling / R \ evolution since 2001
'''''''''''''/____\'''''''''''''''''''

Sustainable Biodiesel...
 
Location: Ukiah, CA USA | Registered: September 19, 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by kumar:
quote:
Originally posted by Paulus:
There are at least two international makers of vege-based motor oil. Fuchs is one.


I don't understand the relevance. Please explain.
Some people claim that biodiesel and/or WVO will not polymerize in the presence of vegetable-based crankcase oil like it may in a petroleum-based crankcase oil.

I also read that article on the engine oil dilution, and I'm not convinced it's a major or even a minor problem with non-DPF vehicles, not yet anyway.


'05 CRD B100
'01 TDi B100

 
Location: Colorado | Registered: March 20, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by kumar:
Sunwizard, if 45% dilution happens with B5, then that is CLEARLY a diesel problem in general, and not a biodiesel or vegetable oil problem. We all know that B5 is just diesel with an additive.

Yes it occurs on all fuels. Bio is a a problem since it ruins the additives in the oil, and can polymerize, diesel doesn't.
quote:

I just read the Biodiesel Magazine article that you linked to, and I feel like this is BS, as in the industry blowing smoke in order to discourage usage of a fuel they don't like, at least here in America. Coincidence that the new research highlights the benefits of using B5, the blend that VWoA decided to approve quite a long time ago? I think not.

It appears to be against B5 as well. I read the article as more of trying to come up with solutions to the problems which is a good thing, rather than the typical biofuel bashing.
quote:

As far as I know, there are a lot of people using these vehicles on high blends of biodiesel, but it would be good to get an idea of the year and models involved- at your links, there are manufacturers listed, but not years and models.

Yes they list the years as anything with a DPF, which is on all US models >=2007.
quote:

For instance, I own an '06 VW Golf that I've put around 40,000 miles on without any issues. How relevant is any of that to this discussion?

This thread is titled "biodiesel getting into engine oil", so its clearly research into that issue and the problems it can cause.

You don't have a DPF so won't have the problem as much. Shorter oil change intervals (OCI) also solve the problem, what is your OCI?. Its much more an issue on the long OCI like VW calls for, and what the original poster asked about.


YVORMV - Your veg. oil results may vary, see www.burnveg.com/forum
95 Dodge Cummins 4x4
Zero fossil house- 100% solar power and heat.
 
Location: N. Colorado | Registered: August 31, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
posted Hide Post
Thank you all for the replies. Certainly is some food for thought here. The owners manual for my 2005 Passat says to change the oil every 12k mikes. I have always changed it at 10k miles (pre-BD usuage). Now I run about 80% BD in the summer. I think I will have to give some serious consideration to changing my oil more frequently.
 
Registered: December 31, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
member
posted Hide Post
Look near the bottom of this page for a pic. of poly. oil.
http://www.geocities.com/ublatz/TDI-Probleme.htm
Near the bottom.
Google translation:
"With the enterprise with bio Diesel it can come by its higher viscosity and the associated worse atomization with Einspritzvorgang to the entry of unburned bio Diesel into the engine oil. This is concealed gladly by the Vermarktern of bio Diesel. In particular operating conditions such as partial load, no-load operation, cold run and short-distance enterprise or worn parts (glow plugs, injection nozzles, piston rings, Zylinderlaufbahnen, seals) contribute to the entry of bio Diesel in the engine oil. Then it can come to the polymerization of engine oil. By polymerization one understands a Verdickung of the engine oil to a tough mass and resulting from it an extremely decreased lubricating of the camps and Zylinderlaufbahnen of the engine up to the principal damage to the engine (Kolbenfresser, bearing failure). But it already hands if only one polymerization is determined, then is not the complete internal surface of the engine with a sticky tough mass covered and with simple means any longer to get out. With the time these linings to a film-like lining and individual Fetzen harden can replaced and into the oil pan fall, of where they are sucked in out by the oil pump and in the long run the filter of the oil intake snorkel to add. The consequence of the fact is that the oil pressure breaks down and is not any longer lubricated the engine. A workshop, which shifts such an added engine for little money again low-priced into condition ready for operation and a reliable (guarantee conditions) hardly find to let (own experience)."
.
.

search on 'blotter test' and 'refrigerator test' on the other side.


1-tank Elsbett VW TDI , 220,000 WVO miles.
http://ctbiodzl.freeshell.org/votdi.html
and a '92 F-250 with only a FPHE
 
Location: Ct,USA | Registered: November 19, 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post



member
posted Hide Post
Here's a demonstration of polymerizing engine oil: Put a fresh sample of unused motor oil into a pop bottle. Into an identical bottle put a sample of your used motor oil (I did this with 5000 miles on the oil, when the recommended change interval was 3500). Tip both bottles upside down then set them side by side upright. The fresh oil runs down the sides quickly, and the used oil is obviously slower and thicker, and opaque. It also had an obviously different odor. After 5 minutes the used oil film was still coating the inside of the bottle, nearly opaque/marginally transparent.
I then went back to changing oil at 3333 miles (easy to calculate odometer numbers) and repeated the "test". The used oil was still opaque initially, but thinned out quickly, not sluggish nor "thicker".
Caveat: my Mazda has lots of miles and is NOT a TDi, so consider this a worst-case engine. Nevertheless I recommend doing some kind of comparitive viscosity test when you change oils. Otherwise you're guessing.
 
Location: Moses Lake, WA, USA | Registered: August 15, 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
posted Hide Post
Here was an interesting post about "polymerization"
And, kind of introduced me to the board.

http://biodiesel.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/159605551/m/8721026712/p/1

Now, this is a bit different question, using Veggie Oil for lubrication, rather than Mineral Oil.

And, it is unclear if there was an effect of mixing the two together (which was done early on), or if the entire problem was "stale" veggie oil.

Nice photos though (page 3)
http://biodiesel.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/159605551/m/8721026712/p/3



The end result was tearing apart the engine and cleaning out all the passages. I haven't heard anything since.

I'm still not convinced it is a bad thing to put veggie oil into the crankcase (if it can be continuously recycled), but certainly one should use caution when it is there.

------------

Hmmm... if one's goal is fuel efficiency, then injecting fuel into the exhaust cycle seems counter intuitive.
 
Location: Oregon | Registered: October 17, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
  Powered by Social Strata  
 

Sponsors    Biodiesel and SVO Forums Home    Forums  Hop To Forum Categories  Biodiesel  Hop To Forums  General Biodiesel Discussion    Biodiesel getting into engine oil

© Maui Green Energy 2000 - 2014