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EPA compliance for a diesel BMW from Germany
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Here's a reality check for ya, son. The 25% wealthiest pay 75% of the income taxes, approximately 50% of the 'taxpayers' pay no income tax at all, and the other 25% which are average folks like you and I, pay only ~25% of the income tax revenue. That group of 25% wealthiest taxpayers also own most of the companies that pay the Billions in corporate taxes that keeps the country running. All this can be easily verified at the treasury dept websites or by using Google to search for "who pays the most tax", or just continue to believe your fantasy, I couldn't care what you choose to believe.

Guess who the government listens to most? Those who pay 25%, or those who pay 75% of the income taxes?

Us common folk are just along for the ride, and mostly subsist on the inherent waste in government and big business that eventually trickles down to us. Don't for one minute believe that the 'bailouts' were anything more than tax rebates to the people who paid most of the taxes in the first place. Democracy is a myth to keep you in line.

I get irritated when your ignorance names other members as naive. Make sure your aim is true and your target is the correct one, before you shoot off your volley of internet wisdom.

The people who import and sell new cars [and trucks] are not interested in selling diesels. They know the market isn't big enough to make the investment worthwhile to sell them in in N.America. You can be sure that if Toyota saw a profit in selling the clean burning, B100 compatible diesel trucks they sell everywhere else in the world, then they would be doing it here. I drive one, but then the jurisdiction I live in isn't so damn protectionist, so it's easy to import good quality clean burning used diesel vehicles into Canada.



 
Location: coldest N.America | Registered: May 03, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I assume you believe in Santa Clause and the Easter Bunny too.
 
Registered: April 17, 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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You assume a lot of things, none of them substantiated by facts; obviously most of them are wrong.

Learn to use a search engine to verify reality, or continue to live in your fantasy world where ignorance is bliss.



 
Location: coldest N.America | Registered: May 03, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I thought the earlier comment was that the dealers didn't want the competition from the gray market vehicles. But even if the regulations were significantly relaxed, the gray market vehicles would only be a rare minority of the cars on the road. And, wouldn't affect anybody's bottom line (except for people directly involved with the shipping/importing).

I would think Diesel vehicles would be more expensive than gas vehicles, and thus there would likely be higher markups... and higher profit margins.

Why a company like VW only imports 2.0 liter Diesels to the USA, and sells the more efficient 1.6 (and smaller) engines in Europe is beyond me. Obviously they don't want slow moving vehicles sitting around their lots.

But, I also think they fear placing a car that gets 70 MPG next to a car that gets 30 MPG.... will cause problems... and perhaps the 70 MPG car won't have the sub-10 second acceleration that is a perceived requirement.

So the fear is that selling 70 MPG and 30 MPG cars together could be bad for both...

But, personally, I think that VW could take some of the wind out of Toyota's sails if they brought in the 70 MPG Golf Blue Motion. Especially now that Toyota seems to have troubles with the speed control of their vehicles.
 
Location: Oregon | Registered: October 17, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Oh...
As far as suing the EPA to relax the auto standards.

It is certainly possible to sue the Federal Government, if you know who to go after.

However, there are provisions to bring in the gray market cars.

Anybody can setup a vehicle conversion facility and register as a registered importer. And, as a registered importer, one can sponsor the consideration of whatever vehicle one wants to import.

One might have difficulties bring the Tata Nano over.... for good reason. But, I'd assume it would be possible to sponsor the consideration of any BMW or VW... with a high likelihood of the vehicle being approved (with some modifications).

Of course, it is an expensive and complicated route.

With provisions to sponsor the consideration of any gray market vehicle that is "safe" and can be configured to pass EPA emission standards, I doubt you would get very far with a lawsuit.

With that in mind, the better direction would be to try to encourage legislation to recognize more modern European vehicles without all the headaches... but no politicians seem interested in tackling the changes.
 
Location: Oregon | Registered: October 17, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by troy:
This is a classic example of big, expensive, intrusive, ineffective, counterproductive federal U.S. government.

I would recommend that you start by firing all of your incumbent senators and congresspersons this fall.


Yeah, because that would deal with this specific issue in a productive manner.


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Location: Ukiah, CA USA | Registered: September 19, 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post



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Units conversion reminder: when a UK or EU website (such as VW UK) specifies a particular Miles Per Gallon, or MPG, they do not use USA gallons. They use Imperial gallons. I see US readers get excited by claims of 70 mpg, but that is equal to 56 mpg, US. That's not bad, but also not exceptional for US-market VW's on the highway.

European small cars are more expensive than US small cars. Here in the US, small "economy" cars are considered "cheap". In the US, "performance" means acceleration. In the UK, "performance" means fuel economy". Trying to sell small cars in the US is not profitable, because drivers here don't value mileage, so the prices have to be low. VW makes more profit on each UK sale than on each US sale, according to a Wards article I read.

The fastest way to get US drivers to demand (and actually buy) cars that get good mileage, rather than high "performance", is to increase the cost of fuel. That's why the UK did it, and it works. The UK earmarks the money for public transportation, and everyone knows it, so they support it (grudgingly).

I wish Ford sold their nice Ranger small pickup truck with their exceptional turbo-diesel engine here. I also wish the Jeep Cherokees that used to be assembled in Georgia using VM diesel engines were sold in the US. Now they're built in Brazil, using engines built in-country.

Higgins: is your wish to bring a BMW station wagon from Germany due to personal experience with the car, or just due to things (such as mpg) that you've read about them? If you would be satisfied with a Mercedes turbo-diesel station wagon, those are already here, legally and available on the used market. You can even get parts and dealer support for them.
Cheers,
JohnO
 
Location: Moses Lake, WA, USA | Registered: August 15, 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by keelec:
As far as suing the EPA to relax the auto standards.

It is certainly possible to sue the Federal Government, if you know who to go after.


Enlighten me. I am unaware of any explicit waiver of sovereign immunity that allows people to go suing the federal government willy-nilly. I suppose you are correct that anyone can file a suit, but it's an expensive way to watch a judge roll his eyes and flush your case. Ask anyone that has tried to sue the IRS, or EPA, or [insert entity here]. Guys like me can make a few bucks writing the world's easiest motions for summary judgment, which I suppose is a benefit! In this case, what are the damages, or where is the particularized harm? I simply see no way to bring a legitimate case here.

quote:
Originally posted by keelec:
...the better direction would be to try to encourage legislation to recognize more modern European vehicles without all the headaches... but no politicians seem interested in tackling the changes.


I fully concur with the method and the desired outcome. Looks like we've come full circle and agree by the end of your post!

Cheers, John
 
Registered: June 17, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Sorry about not being precise with the numbers earlier.... I'll endeavor to give exact numbers in the future.

MPG values from VW Websites, US and UK. US MPG calculated for European models.

2010 VW Polo Blue Motion, 1.2L TDI, 75 HP: (highway/city/combined)
l/100km (3.1 / 4.2 / 3.5)
UK MPG (91.1 / 67.3 / 80.7)
US MPG (75.9 / 56 / 67.2)

2010 VW Golf Blue Motion 1.6L TDI, 105 HP: (highway/city/combined)
l/100km (3.4 / 4.7 / 3.8)
UK MPG (83.1 / 60.1 / 74.3)
US MPG (69.2 / 50 / 61.9)

2010 VW Golf - US Gasoline Model
US MPG (30 MPG HWY, 22 MPG City)

2010 VW Golf - US Diesel Model, 2.0 L
US MPG (42 MPG HWY, 30 MPG City)

Any comparisons I would give to my 1981 VW Caddy would include a stock 1.6L engine, 5spd tranny, and actual observed city/country/highway mileage generally on commercial B100, running unloaded getting 45 MPG US, with a max observed of 49 MPG US HWY mileage.

Why has the Toyota Prius been a top selling vehicle for a decade?
It certainly hasn't been the cheapest car on the block.

I would hope that manufactures actually do real market surveys. But, any survey is worthless if they don't ask the right questions.

When gasoline was at $1/gallon... many people wanted the bigger, the better in cars. And those who didn't weren't the ones buying expensive new cars.

With gasoline at $3 to $5 per gallon, and a very strong "green movement"... the 1960's mentality may not still hold true. The best manufactures are the ones that can adapt to changing market conditions.

And... yes, I also own a 1967 Fiat 500. The Italians had the "crumple zone" concept down... they just forgot to exclude vital body parts from the crumple zones!!!! So, I know the basis of many EPA and DOT standards. But like everything else, times have changed and the modern European cars aren't the rolling death-traps of the 60's.
 
Location: Oregon | Registered: October 17, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by dukegrad98:
Enlighten me. I am unaware of any explicit waiver of sovereign immunity that allows people to go suing the federal government willy-nilly. I suppose you are correct that anyone can file a suit, but it's an expensive way to watch a judge roll his eyes and flush your case.
Cheers, John

It actually isn't that expensive...
Walk into the local Federal court.
Pay $300 or so filing fee...
Send off the necessary copies of the suit.
And, hope...

You can find many examples of the necessary format for the documents on the internet.

If you deliver the lawsuit to the defendant by certified mail, then you can hope it gets routed to someone who will respond, and don't have to pay for it to be served.

And, whether or not it is successful, perhaps the suit would help awaken someone to new issues and concerns (although it could also harden their resistance to change).

The problem is that the EPA/DOT will be following the Federal CFR. There are likely a few inconsistencies in the CFR... But you would likely have to refer to Constitutional rights (which I can't think how they apply)... or basic human rights which might be a stretch... but there may be some precedent with freedom of choice. Or looking towards environmental law. But, again one would have to have a law, or precedence for the suit.

Not being a lawyer, I can think of many lawsuits against local governments about issues such as racial integration, busing, and abortion. However, the cases against the federal government seem to be fewer. Perhaps there were some federal lawsuits about Guantanamo.
 
Location: Oregon | Registered: October 17, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by john galt:
Here's a reality check for ya, son. The 25% wealthiest pay 75% of the income taxes,
Here's a relity check for ya, son. Nowhere on the website you refer to does it say that the 25% wealthiest people pay 75% of the taxes. It says "with a small group of higher-income taxpayers paying most of the individual income taxes each year." Anyone who is not living in a make-believe world knows that the wealthiest people can afford to get law makers to write tax laws that favor the extremely wealthy and lawers to find the work-arounds provided by these laws to avoid paying taxes.
Because IRS figures are secret noone actually knows what people pay in taxes. The smart money is that the wealthiest people in the world, Bill and Linda Gates pay NO federal income tax.

quote:
approximately 50% of the 'taxpayers' pay no income tax at all,
That probably includes Americas most wealthy People such as Bill Gates.

quote:
That group of 25% wealthiest taxpayers also own most of the companies that pay the Billions in corporate taxes that keeps the country running.
Being Wealthy and paying huge taxes do not go hand in hand. I bet you can not show us where you came up with that information. I did not see it on the website you referenced.

quote:
All this can be easily verified at the treasury dept websites or by using Google to search for "who pays the most tax", or just continue to believe your fantasy, I couldn't care what you choose to believe.
Did you notice the information on the Treasury website comes from 2002? It does not even contain all the tax handouts to the extremely Wealthy that WW enacted in his 8 years of office. The website does not support what you are saying. You are the person in the fantasy world.

quote:
Guess who the government listens to most? Those who pay 25%, or those who pay 75% of the income taxes?
Seeing as the government has specifically set up the tax laws up so that the wealthiest people can avoid paying taxes, combined with the fact that peoples tax records are secret and not privy to scrutinization by Senators and Represenatives I would suggest they listen to the wealthiest people regardless of the amount of tax paid, just like they always have.
If you really think that paying Tax determins who the government will listen to you are living in a fantasy world.
 
Registered: April 24, 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Shall we move the discussion about EPA compliance for a diesel BMW from Germany to the Politics section, so it doesn't distract from the political discussion? Or perhaps it would be better to do it the other way around?
Perhaps we're actually done with the BMW discussion after all.

Regards,
JohnO
 
Location: Moses Lake, WA, USA | Registered: August 15, 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post



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