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virgin veggie oil problem/question
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I have been making and using biodiesel for 9 years. Few bad batches, but overall very successful. I just got lucky and was given several 55 gallon barrels of new unused veggie oil. Some soy oil and some conola. Sealed, not contaminated, from a company that went out of business. I thought it would make great bio! Although the bio is coming out well, I am finding some things:
1. I need about 50% more Potassium than my measurements indicate to get good separation.
2. During mixing, this stuff foams so bad I am having to reduce the volume in the mixer to prevent spills.
3. I usually do the two phase 70/30 or 60/40 method. With this stuff I am doing 70/30 and then another 30, still getting separation.
After all the foaming and the extral processing, it comes out wonderful. Still bubble wash etc.

Any ideas as to the problems I am seeing? Did another batch with my used oils, and was back to regular processing, so it is clearly the virgin oil, not measurements, ingredients etc. Any help or suggestions appreciated.

duramax driver


Duramax Driver
03 duramax
06 Lib CRD
 
Location: Maryland | Registered: May 03, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Hi duramax driver,

Just to understand, do you mean the oil foams after you add the methoxide to the oil?
can you be specific as to the amount of chemicals you are using in each stage.
Are you titrating? If so what is the titration.


A problem with two stage procedures is that if you are not careful you will not include enough KOH in the first stage to use all the methanol available in the first stage- the reaction will stop short from lack of KOH and there will be excess methanol in the glycerine layer.
My testing has shown that a straight 70% split of methanol and KOH in the first stage is not an ideal split- there should be more KOH to insure all the methanol available is actually used.

I see you are from Maryland. I am too! I grew up in the Fort Washington/ Oxon Hill area which is just outside SE DC.
I do not live there anymore, which is probably just as well because I will always remember it as "God's Country" instead of what it has become in later years.






 
Location: ลึก ประเทศอินเดีย | Registered: March 03, 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Yes, I titrate each batch. The virgin oil titrates at 1, but I am calculating for 2.5. After circulating for about an hour, foaming starts. This last batch in a 55 gallon cone tank using a 40 gallon batch, actually spilled some foam out.
If you are using 70/30 methanol, what are you using for K+ in part 1 and 2?
Thanks for the idea!
Only from MD until this summer, moving to Tennessee. Tired of Maryland libtards, taxes, atheism. I live about 45 minutes from the area where the riots occurred. DONE!


Duramax Driver
03 duramax
06 Lib CRD
 
Location: Maryland | Registered: May 03, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Hi Duramax driver,

I recommend that you start with the 2 stage procedure that Neutral posted to the forum.
http://www.biodieseldiscussion...owthread.php?t=28555
The main requirement is that you include ALL of the titration amount of KOH in the first stage because the first stage is when all the FFA's are neutralized

Of course there are other magical two stage procedures available but they only seem to really work properly in small localities of the UK Wink






 
Location: ลึก ประเทศอินเดีย | Registered: March 03, 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I will need to read it and then convert it to gallons, and to 40 or 45 gallon batches which is what i have been doing. I did just add 2 gallons of methanol and another 500 G of KOH. It has removed the top foam and will run for a few hours.
Where do you live now that you have left the peoples democratic republic of Maryland?


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Location: Maryland | Registered: May 03, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Hi duramax driver,
I now live in Sunny Queensland Australia where the weather is Beautiful One Day, Perfect the Next!
Except when it floods or there is hail or there is a drought Wink






 
Location: ลึก ประเทศอินเดีย | Registered: March 03, 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post



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Interesting. I am a physician assistant, emergency medicine. I noted Australia is starting a PA program and has a PA association. I contacted them, as I do some teaching and have done this for 21 years, hoping to visit, see another nations system. Told they dont accept out of country PAs for work, but thanks anyway. Was hoping to visit and see how someone else does it!
Is Bio big there? I use B100 about 9-10 months and B50 the rest.
Merry Christmas!


Duramax Driver
03 duramax
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Location: Maryland | Registered: May 03, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I can't see why you would do a two-stage conversion on virgin oil.
 
Location: New Zealand | Registered: August 15, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I've experimented usually on virgin corn oil. My titration was about 0.6 grams per litre. I use 20%-25% commercial anhydrous methanol by volume, and about 5-7 grams + titration per litre of virgin corn oil with KOH to do the transesterification . I never failed to achieve a separation using this one stage method. I reacted at about 60-65 degrees centigrade for an hour to an hour and a half with strong mixing. I got a biodiesel density of about 0.87 grams per millilter for the product after removing the glycerine layer, demething the crude biodiesel, then dry washing with magnesium silicate. I don't believe it's best to use a two step reaction for your virgin vegetable oil. I suppose it's possible that even virgin vegetable oil might be wet.
 
Location: Texas | Registered: April 27, 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Hi duramax,
No, biodiesel is not big here.


Hi Paulus and WesleyB,
The main reason to use a 2 stage Base/Base method with this type of oil is to save on total methanol used assuming you want to pass warnqvist.






 
Location: ลึก ประเทศอินเดีย | Registered: March 03, 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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It is falling a bit out of favor here at present as petrol based is so cheap. 2.11 per gallon today. When it was above 3/gallon, and a few summers ago at almost 5/gal, bio was huge. I still use it, as it costs me about .97 to 1.04 depending on acid number per gallon. Truck is quieter with it. A friend made an extra fuel tank on a trailer and drove from Maryland to Montana on our bio.
merry Christmas!


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Location: Maryland | Registered: May 03, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Times change




 
Location: coldest N.America | Registered: May 03, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post



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quote:
Originally posted by Tilly:
Hi Duramax driver,

I recommend that you start with the 2 stage procedure that Neutral posted to the forum.
http://www.biodieseldiscussion...owthread.php?t=28555
The main requirement is that you include ALL of the titration amount of KOH in the first stage because the first stage is when all the FFA's are neutralized

Of course there are other magical two stage procedures available but they only seem to really work properly in small localities of the UK Wink


Is this the method you now use Tilly?
 
Location: Leeds, UK | Registered: April 13, 2014Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Hi David,

quote:
Originally posted by David Shinn:
Is this the method you now use Tilly?
At one point I used a modified version of Neutral's 2 stage procedure, but I no longer use a two stage procedure. For me it is a waste of time because my car does not require high conversion biodiesel.

My only attempt at magical procedures was many years ago when I experimented with intoning the "Happy biodiesel warriors transesterfying chant" while performing the transesterification two step when I was making biodiesel

The results was to annoy our horse.







 
Location: ลึก ประเทศอินเดีย | Registered: March 03, 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I went to two stage processing about 7 years ago. Even now, using the new oil, if I use 125% of predicted KOH, 125 degrees and circulate x 5-6 hours, if I do a second phase I still get glycerin drop out. Don't know why.
Started out single stage with 100% water wash.
Now two stage, bubble wash
Seems like better fuel.
Guess I should have just tried the magic chants and saved time!


Duramax Driver
03 duramax
06 Lib CRD
 
Location: Maryland | Registered: May 03, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Hi Duramax driver,
Over the years, I have found that the great majority of problems with incomplete reactions is the results of insufficient mixing vigor with the reactor. The pump being used is too small for the job.

If you are doing 45 gallon batches that is about 170 litres.
The typical 1/2 hp/ 375 Watt water pump is totally inadequate for reliably mixing that big a batch in a single stage.






 
Location: ลึก ประเทศอินเดีย | Registered: March 03, 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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perhaps. I am using a 1 HP 675 GPH pump. So, I am moving just over 10 GPM. Perhaps I will try with smaller batches. But until I got this virgin oil, I did not have an issue.


Duramax Driver
03 duramax
06 Lib CRD
 
Location: Maryland | Registered: May 03, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Hi duramax driver,

The rating on your pump will be for water, I think you will find that pumping combinations of oil and bio the volume of pumped liquid will be about 75% of the rated volume.

So at about 30 litres/min your mixing is less than ideal. My batch size is similar to yours and my measured flow is 60 lpm (pump
rating is 75lpm) without taking into account any additional mixing from the eductor.

If nothing else has changed but the oil I would suggest heating the oil up to around 50degs C and see if any water falls out, as what you are describing sounds like excess soap being produced.

Dave.
 
Location: YORK UK | Registered: April 27, 2014Reply With QuoteReport This Post



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Certainly worth a try. When using used oil, I am careful to avoid wet oil. This is virgin, so I was not anticipating excess moisture. Will check!
thanks for all the comments, gives me some ideas to try.


Duramax Driver
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Location: Maryland | Registered: May 03, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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