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Why 2007 & Newer ULSD Emission Vehicles Don't Like Biodiesel
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Useful, clear, and concise. Thanks Graydon.
 
Location: CO, CA, KS, or FL | Registered: January 17, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Whew...

I looked up my 1989 F350

http://www.forgottendiesels.com/7.3_ford.html

7.3L (I think).
HP: 185 HP @ 3,000 RPM
Peak Torque: 360 lb-ft. @ 1,400 RPM (388 w/ turbo)

So in the last two decades they've managed to double the HP...
Now one doesn't need to let the speed drop a few MPH going up hills.
Might as well put the hammer down and accelerate up the hills!!!

For some reason, the EPA doesn't require the company to report fuel efficiency... so it is hard to tell what the "real story" is on that... some estimates say it may be up by as much as 20% (over what?) But could tip over 20 MPG highway (we'll see).
 
Location: Oregon | Registered: October 17, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Cummins 5.9 L
Late 2005 - 2007 305 - 325 hp 610 lb-ft torque

Much better engine than the 6.7L



 
Location: coldest N.America | Registered: May 03, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
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On another topic in this forum a member called ninja12r proposed his solution to the DPF problem. His method was to remove the filter unit and replace it with a length of steel pipe. The pipe would have a hole drilled into it and a nut welded over the hole to accept the dpf sensor. The lead from the sensor to the ECU would be cut and diverted to a switch on the dashboard of the vehicle.
The sensor would be switched on before turning on the ignition and after the car was started the sensor would be switched off. This he claimed would prevent the ecu showing a fault warning and also mean that the regen cycle would never be activated.
He sounds like he knows what he is doing but before I take his advice I would like to know if anyone else has any experience with this method.
 
Location: Lismore Ireland | Registered: November 25, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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The DPF regen cycle uses 2 criteria. Pressure differential in the DPF causes it to regen. 2nd is time. It will regen after a certain amount of time even if the delta P does not call for it. So, no it will not fully stop the regen. HTH Smile


Blessings. Joe 1999 Chevy Suburban w/new optimizer 6500 TD and 1995 Chevy Cube van 6.5L. WWW.RillaBioFuels.com
WWW.RillaBioFuels.com
 
Location: Sterling Hts. Michigan USA | Registered: October 18, 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Your information would seem to be correct, at least for some vehicles. Ninja12r has done his mod to three vehicles, an Iveco van , an Audi car and most recently a Toyota car. It worked perfectly on the Iveco, the regen cycle has never switched on. The Audi does have a time setting and on long journeys will sometimes start to regen. The car smokes for a few minutes and the ecu light comes on. The Toyota is much more complicated and the ecu will not be fooled by simply switching off the sensor.
Ninja12r is running these vehicles on ordinary diesel and has disabled the dpf for reasons of economy and performance, so the occasional running of the regen cycle is not a serious problem. Using biodiesel in a car with such a modification is a different matter and cannot really be recommended.
 
Location: Lismore Ireland | Registered: November 25, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post



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I agree with imakebiodiesel that doing that mod and running biodiesel without paying attention to your crankcase oil level or going long miles between oil changes is not recommended. However, if you pay regular attention to your oil level and change your oil about every 3,000 miles (like Jiffy Lube wants you to) then running biodiesel even with a post ignition injection cycle can be fine.

The hazard of running biodiesel in these engines comes from biodiesel being more viscous than petro-diesel. When squirted through the injectors, biodiesel doesn't atomize as well and instead of all of it flowing out with the exhaust air, some of it sticks to the cylinder walls. Eventually this biodiesel on the cylinder walls works its way down and drips into the crankcase oil. Biodiesel is a lubricant, so this isn't really a problem until it builds up enough to either lessen the viscosity of your crankcase oil or overfill the reservoir enough that the crankshaft is submerged in oil. That is when the stresses of pushing the connecting rods through the oil and the air frothing into the oil starts to cause major problems.


Todd Swagerty
Mechanical Engineer
Springboard Biodiesel, LLC.
530.894.1793
341 Huss Drive, Chico, CA 95928
www.springboardbiodiesel.com
 
Location: NorCal | Registered: December 07, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I have to say that in my experience it is the people who buy new or late model cars who never look under the hood until smoke is coming out of it. The guy who drives the beat up late nineties diesel merc or VW is the one who you can rely on to check his oil level every week. Still I take your point that short oil change intervals will reduce the problem. Would it make sense to use a higher viscosity oil which would take longer to thin out?
 
Location: Lismore Ireland | Registered: November 25, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Yeah, that's why I made sure to highlight the paying attention part. As far as higher viscosity oil, I would still use the recommended viscosity. By the time there is enough biodiesel in the oil to affect the viscosity, most oils would be starting to degrade or collect deposits and should be changed. I mentioned it before because if there is an oil leak, there is a possibility that the reservoir will never overfill and that can still cause the low viscosity problem if the owner never checks or changes their oil.


Todd Swagerty
Mechanical Engineer
Springboard Biodiesel, LLC.
530.894.1793
341 Huss Drive, Chico, CA 95928
www.springboardbiodiesel.com
 
Location: NorCal | Registered: December 07, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Crankcase oil dilution is not a problem when the vehicle has the HCI in the exhuast where it belongs.
The 2010 Duramax has it in the downpipe, right after the turbocharger. Smile


Blessings. Joe 1999 Chevy Suburban w/new optimizer 6500 TD and 1995 Chevy Cube van 6.5L. WWW.RillaBioFuels.com
WWW.RillaBioFuels.com
 
Location: Sterling Hts. Michigan USA | Registered: October 18, 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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All,

Many of the possible solutions seem to be to remove the emissions gadgetry altogether, or alter the ECU's programme to eliminate the post-injection event. In pondering how to thread the needle on the whole issue of keeping the EPA and any state level authority at bay, there seems to be little that can actually be done that won't break either the "anti-tampering" laws (which are hopelessly vague in many respects) or preclude operation on high concentration BD fuels. If I understand correctly, this whole business isn't about whether BD is good or bad, but an oil "contamination" issue and what we are sorting out is the degree of validity vs. nonsense for how serious the issue is. I've observed that over time, manufacturers have moved towards extended drain intervals for oil changes using this or that approved oil, usually in combination with specific approved filters. Could it be the nexus of this issue is a combination of particulate emissions (as imposed by the EPA) and the desire by the manufacture to retain what may be believed to be a "competitive advantage" by offering extended drain intervals of some 15,000 miles? I think this is where a fair percentage of the interactions originate - long oil drain intervals combined with a less volatile fuel stock and you've the makings of an easily hyped "major problem."

Assuming my hypothesis of where our root cause is and how we got here, I see three potential solutions. If the whole issue stems from oil contamination, then it would seem reasonable to address that one issue and be done with it. The up side is no legal entanglements, the down side is you'll increase operating costs with more oil changes and that oil is sourced from finite fossil resources, if that matters to you. in order from least invasive to most invasive:

1. Just run any BD you choose and halve your oil change/filter change frequency - there are particularly good reasons to change oil more often than 10K-15K miles anyway. I had a "sealed for life" transmission on one of my cars that was anything but, and while I'd like to think that choosing a special high cost filter will allow me to extend my drain interval to 15K+, how much oil quality remains (inclusive of additives package) this long under all operating conditions, or even a high enough proportion of conditions to be truly adequate? I'm changing mine on all vehicles at 4000K and no more than 5K when I know the operating conditions have been mostly highway miles lightly loaded.

2. Since BD doesn't vapourize as readily as dinodiesel, advancing the injection point via hacking the ECU programme might be another option. How many degrees is subject to experimentation. In my mechanically governed diesels, I always found a sweet spot at some 2 degrees advanced over the factory spec. It's possible this might be a good starting point. With a bit more time from advancing the injection point, the BD fuel should evaporate more satisfactorily and behave within the expectations of the system designers. The obvious downsides here are that you've meddled with the ECU and have therefore already mucked with the "anti-tampering," leaving some room for legal entanglements. I would suggest that the advancing of injection to be at lower risk, but as I am no attorney, I could be mistaken.

3. Eviscerate the particulate filter, terminate the post-injection event through the ECU programme. With both biodiesel encumbrances removed, run any bloody fuel you wish to. In most domiciles however, you've rendered the vehicle "for offroad use only" and the EPA or state authority will likely have no problem spotting the changes if they spend more than a few moments of quality time through the OBD2 port. You may pass the visual, but the ECU once interrogated will reveal it's been tampered with though reconfiguration of the routines for post-injection. Procedures for emissions checking can and do change, if not sufficiently detailed today, what about next year? You need to have the confidence you can pass before you walk in with a vehicle doomed to fail due to a procedure change made the week before.

I would have no problem recommending 1. for the somewhat braver number 2 might be an option. But for the last option, I think you are opening up a world of hurt. BD in high concentrations with extended oil drain intervals would seem to me to be the root of the problem and the designers did not see fit to accommodate both. It's an ugly hack the manufacturers are using, but the EPA and CARB didn't tell them "how" they needed to do it (and by rights, if they had it probably would have been even worse), this was a fairly obvious path of least resistance from the standpoint of system cost/complexity to the manufacturer. Nothing more. We should use a similarly efficient method to counteract those decisions until such time as the designs are updated (don't hold your breath) and retrofit explored, or alternative measures for compliance can be achieved legally (also a bit unlikely at this point, no lobby is working this issue in any concerted way).

With warm regards and Happy Holidays,

-R
 
Location: SoCal | Registered: November 23, 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I'm not sure that a timing change would adequately protect the DPF and Oil.

I believe the newer pickups are coming out with post-cylinder injection.. and thus have resolved the oil dilution problem. It would be good to get a list of exactly which vehicles are affected by the oil dilution issues, and which aren't.

I haven't heard of VW and Mercedes incorporating an out of cylinder injector, but perhaps one could be retrofit into the vehicles and the system could be programmed to recognize it, although that sounds like an extensive mod for a 3rd party.
 
Location: Oregon | Registered: October 17, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post



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I own a biodiesel plant in Kansas. The fuel we produce far exceeds the standard set by ASTM. I also own and operate a farm and ranch here in Kansas. In addition i own a trucking company. In the summer months we run b100 in every diesel engine we have. In the winter we run b50. We have 4 new Dodge Ram diesel pick ups, 4 new John Deere combines, new and old John Deere tractors and sprayers. Our semi trucks have Cummins, Detroit, and Catapilar engines. We use synthetic motor oil in all our diesel engines. In our pick ups we only change oil every 10,000 miles. In the semi trucks we change it every 20,000 miles. In our tractors and combines we change oil every 500 hours. We have complete oil tests run by a 3rd party lab every time we change oil. We have never had any measurable amount of biodiesel residue in our oil tests. The company we buy the oil from said we could even extend oil changes longer.

It is my belief that "crankcase washing" is due to off spec fuel. We have never experienced any problems with dpf filter plugging either. We have 1 pick up that has 60,000 miles that has only gone thru the dpf regeneration 1 time. and i think that is because in the winter we have to run a blended fuel so the bio wont gel. We prefilter all of our fuel with a 1 micron absolute filter (hi-pro hp75L8-1mb) before it goes in any equipment. I think this helps the dpf filter clogging issues as well.

The only issue with biodiesel we have experienced is associated with older tractors. Over time prolonged use of petroleum fuels can lead to a build up of parafin along the tank walls and fuel lines. biodiesel will clean the system and put the crud in the fuel filter. Sometimes we have gone thru a couple of fuel filters in order to clean the system up. As soon as the system is clean you are good to go.

Burn quality bio and you wont have any problems!!!!!
 
Location: minneola | Registered: February 02, 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by iburnit:
We have 4 new Dodge Ram diesel pick ups...
We have 1 pick up that has 60,000 miles that has only gone thru the dpf regeneration 1 time.


I hope the warranty hasn't expired. You should get that one checked.
 
Location: Sellersville, PA | Registered: May 17, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I've also posted this in the Vehicles section of this forum, but it seems relevant here:

Hi all,

Our old flatbed just kicked the bucket, prompting us to purchase a new model F450 as its replacement. This truck is warranteed to run on B20, which is nice. However, we will be running it on pure biodiesel.

It appears that this truck has late-post "in-cylinder" injection, which is the culprit implicated in motor oil dilution. We will be treating it as such, checking the oil level frequently, and changing it every 3000 miles.

However, my conversations with Ford and Diesel experts have left me wondering if this truck really does use in-cylinder injection as part of its DPF system. They have maintained that it has the more biodiesel-friendly exhaust stream type.

The literature from Ford seems to indicate in-cylinder, but it isn't exactly crystal clear.

Does anyone here know for sure?

Thanks,


Kumar Plocher
Yokayo Biofuels
Yokayo Biofuels Facebook page
.........../ \..............
fueling / R \ evolution since 2001
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Sustainable Biodiesel...
 
Location: Ukiah, CA USA | Registered: September 19, 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Kumar,
I've heard the same rumor (that Ford is still using in-cylinder post injection) but I'd love to know if you can clarify it. I know the Duramax definitely moved the injector out of the engine and into the exhaust stream (not sure but I think they stuck it just after the Turbo, but I know it's not in the engine itself).

I'm curious to know how well the new Ford performs on Bio. Hopefully it does better than the Dodge's did. I really think they'd be stupid to have left the post-injection event in the cylinder. Especially when all of the Big 3 saw oil dilution even with diesel fuel.

Hopefully it performs well for you. They sure are proud of that fact (huge, mondo B20 emblem on the door)




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Location: Utah | Registered: October 08, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by kumar:
The literature from Ford seems to indicate in-cylinder, but it isn't exactly crystal clear.

Does anyone here know for sure?

Thanks,


I can't say for sure but this leads me to believe it's in the exhaust system.

From 2011 Ford F-450 Owner's Manual Diesel Supplement 5th Printing (pdf pg 26)
http://www.motorcraftservice.c...LEN/33/1160l6d5e.pdf

Your vehicle is equipped with a selective catalytic reduction (SCR)
system to help reduce emission levels of oxides of nitrogen from the
exhaust of the diesel engine. The system automatically injects diesel
exhaust fluid (DEF) into the exhaust system to enable proper SCR
function.
 
Location: Sellersville, PA | Registered: May 17, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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That's for the SCR which is different than the DPF.

SCR is to reduce Nitrous Oxides (NOx) in the exhaust.
DPF reduces diesel particulates (the black smoke).

Two different systems, but both in the exhaust stream.
SCR uses a urea based solution that it sprays in the tailpipe into the SCR unit.




Utah Biodiesel Supply - Biodiesel Supplies, Parts, Kits, Tutorials, Decals & More
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Location: Utah | Registered: October 08, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post



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quote:
Originally posted by Graydon Blair:
That's for the SCR which is different than the DPF.
Oops! Red Face
 
Location: Sellersville, PA | Registered: May 17, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by Graydon Blair:
I'm curious to know how well the new Ford performs on Bio. Hopefully it does better than the Dodge's did. I really think they'd be stupid to have left the post-injection event in the cylinder. Especially when all of the Big 3 saw oil dilution even with diesel fuel.


Well, after studying this more, I'm about 90% certain that it's in-cylinder, as I've seen reference to "5th post injection" in official Ford materials:

quote:
During regeneration, the left side injectors perform post injection. The right side injectors do not provide fuel for
regeneration because right side cylinders supply exhaust gas to the EGR valve and EGR cooler.


quote:
The PCM starts regeneration of the DPF if the soot load exceeds a calibrated value. The PCM determines the load condition of the DPF, based on the exhaust gas pressure upstream of the DPF. The DPF pressure sensor provides the pressure input to the PCM. This soot can be cleaned by passive, active, or manual regeneration. Manual regeneration is performed by using the IDS.

Passive Regeneration

Passive regeneration takes place when exhaust temperatures exceed 300°C (572°F). This process does not affect engine performance and is transparent to the driver.

Active Regeneration

Active regeneration occurs when exhaust temperatures are insufficient to achieve passive regeneration and the DPF pressure sensor is indicating the need for regeneration. The PCM automatically activates the left bank fuel injectors only during the exhaust stroke to raise exhaust temperature to begin regeneration while the vehicle is in motion. Engine performance is not affected by active regeneration, however the engine or exhaust tone may change.

Manual Regeneration

The IDS can be used to perform a manual regeneration of the DPF in the shop and set the ash value under stationary conditions to clean and calibrate the system. The Malfunction Indicator Lamp (MIL) may illuminate when service or maintenance of the DPF is necessary.


Kumar Plocher
Yokayo Biofuels
Yokayo Biofuels Facebook page
.........../ \..............
fueling / R \ evolution since 2001
'''''''''''''/____\'''''''''''''''''''

Sustainable Biodiesel...
 
Location: Ukiah, CA USA | Registered: September 19, 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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