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Why 2007 & Newer ULSD Emission Vehicles Don't Like Biodiesel
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posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by William Brown:
quote:
Originally posted by john galt:
Some manufacturers have given specific advice that the use of B30 biodiesel is not approved for use in their vehicles and state that it will invalidate their warranty.

The Magnuson Moss Warranty Act would beg to differ.

Not quite so clear.

Here is a good summary on the Oregon Government Site:
biodiesel_dealers_letter.pdf
1975 Act, predated biodiesel and ASTM.
quote:
Because vehicle warranties only cover parts and workmanship, fuel is not covered under
any vehicle warranty. If a customer develops a problem that is directly caused by
something other than a failure of the parts or workmanship, it will not be covered by the
vehicle’s warranty. If an engine fails because of out-of-specification diesel or biodiesel, it
will not be covered by the vehicle’s warranty.
quote:
Conversely, if consumers that use biodiesel have an engine failure unrelated to the use of
biodiesel and the cause is found to be faulty parts or workmanship, then the failure would
be covered by the warranty. If a customer brings in a vehicle that has used biodiesel and
the customer is told that the warranty is voided solely because the customer is using
biodiesel, this violates the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act.
A vehicle’s warranty cannot be voided solely due to the use of biodiesel. Even if the
manufacturer recommends a blend of 5% biodiesel and a customer uses a higher blend
such as 20% or 99% biodiesel, this does not void the warranty. If a customer uses a blend
of biodiesel that is not recommended, that in and of itself, does not void the warranty. If
the biodiesel is not the cause of the engine or parts failure, the warranty must be honored
(assuming the failure is not the result of another external factor).
So... there is some leeway with the warranty coverage. The article goes on to suggest taking fuel samples and doing ASTM testing on the fuel.

So, if you have a rearend problem on your vehicle... and it is caused by a factory defect, then it must be covered under warranty no matter what fuel you are using.

However, say, you come in with clogged injectors, or burnt valves, or coking issues, and you have "out of spec fuel", then it may or may not be covered by warranty, and the company could potentially reject a warranty claim for either running non-ASTM fuel, or going to a higher mix ratio than factory recommended.

People don't like paying for $5000 to $10000 engine repairs, and the companies are often pretty forgiving... but how about this scenario.

Fill your twin tanks on your pickup with gasoline instead of diesel (both very low when refilled). Notice major performance issues, and wonder if you put in the wrong fuel. Drive the vehicle for 800 miles to drain the tanks. Bring the vehicle to the dealer with a cloud of smoke... warranty issue?

How about oil plug falls out before first oil change? Despite lots of warning signals, owner drives the vehicle until it doesn't drive anymore. So, plug falling out could be a factory defect, but driving the car despite warning sirens going off is not a factory defect.

Factory recommendations are to change the oil every few thousand miles... What if you show up at the dealership having driven your car 99,000 miles without an oil change?

Nothing is cut and dry if you are not following the factory recommendations.
 
Location: Oregon | Registered: October 17, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by Rustin:
The number one selling power plant manufacturer by numbers has been the Cummins Corporation Ford owns 3/4 of the company.


Ford does not own any part of Cummins. At one time Ford owned 10% of Cummins stock, but they sold it all back to Cummins.

Ken
 
Location: Sellersville, PA | Registered: May 17, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by Bunk:
quote:
Originally posted by Rustin:
The number one selling power plant manufacturer by numbers has been the Cummins Corporation Ford owns 3/4 of the company.


Ford does not own any part of Cummins. At one time Ford owned 10% of Cummins stock, but they sold it all back to Cummins.

Ken

Realy I was sure that they did and have the last 6 yrs? I will investigate.


1999 F-250 Running B-50 and getting over 24 miles per Gallon. and getting +/- 380 ftlbs of torque from modifications HA HA HEH! OOH! RAH! Semper Fi!
 
Location: Redding | Registered: December 21, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Be surprised, diesels are what they use. Read up on it and you will see why. It's a safety issue.


Fuel leaks?

A leaking CNG tank could quickly become a big boom!

A leaking gasoline tank could easily flash into a nice fireball.

But leaking diesel just stinks until you soak it up.
 
Location: Southern WI, USA | Registered: May 18, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Rustin, if Ford owned a controlling intrest in Cummins why wuld they put Navistar motors in their trucks?


The smell of my exhaust makes me hungry!
www.rwtbiodiesel.com
 
Location: Southern Indiana | Registered: June 26, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I have been wondering that myself. I think it was because Dodge groupe had an exclusive contract for the 5.9 and 5.9 ISB to now. and Ford already had an exclusive contract with navistar before they bought Cummins. I am still investigating


1999 F-250 Running B-50 and getting over 24 miles per Gallon. and getting +/- 380 ftlbs of torque from modifications HA HA HEH! OOH! RAH! Semper Fi!
 
Location: Redding | Registered: December 21, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post



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Ford never owned Cummins nor do they now.
 
Location: West Michigan | Registered: April 26, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Ford-Cummins Accord Set - The New York Times
Jul 28, 1990 ... Though the deal also called for Cummins to sell Tenneco Inc. a 10.8 percent stake and Kubota Ltd. of Japan a 5.4 percent stake, Ford ...

SEC Info - Ford Motor Co - SC 13D/A - Cummins Inc - On 1/6/97
Ford Motor Co - SC 13D/A - Cummins Inc - On 1/6/97 - General Statement of ... or proposes to issue or sell, to any person Voting Securities or Voting ...
www.secinfo.com/d1533.8e.htm - 48k

www.nytimes.com/1990/07/28/bus...mins-accord-set.html
those are old ones. however it still holds true

Hopefully that answers some questions. I am Very confused by it and am very glade some one asked for clarification.


1999 F-250 Running B-50 and getting over 24 miles per Gallon. and getting +/- 380 ftlbs of torque from modifications HA HA HEH! OOH! RAH! Semper Fi!
 
Location: Redding | Registered: December 21, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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After all of my investigations. I found that I was partially right. But in the end I was wrong. Ford did own Cummins for a time they were share holdings. Ford no longer owns interest in Cummins.
My apologies to the forum. Will you all forgive me!


1999 F-250 Running B-50 and getting over 24 miles per Gallon. and getting +/- 380 ftlbs of torque from modifications HA HA HEH! OOH! RAH! Semper Fi!
 
Location: Redding | Registered: December 21, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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O.K. John
http://www.msha.gov/S&HINFO/DE.../COMPGDE/CGPT1.HTM#3
I was all over that one. there has been no revision since 1997 only attachments. There is no specific test for Diesel Equipment they only do shaft air quality. however the diesel equipment must meet a specific opacity test. Archaic if you ask me. If the shaft or mine is over its Nox and Co limits, and find that the diesel equipment is at fault it has to be repaired or replaced. I have read of south African Mines using Toyota Diesels. A few American mining company using Toyota Diesels in skid steer vehicles. as far as power generation They use Cummins, Detroit (Mercedes), Scoda? and a few others.


1999 F-250 Running B-50 and getting over 24 miles per Gallon. and getting +/- 380 ftlbs of torque from modifications HA HA HEH! OOH! RAH! Semper Fi!
 
Location: Redding | Registered: December 21, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I found a site selling DPF Delete Kits...
http://www.lagunaspeed.com/pro...T-5JkCFRMUagodYzrBQw

Cool!




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Location: Utah | Registered: October 08, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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We have compiled the information about this topic as best we could, and explained it in technical detail at this page: http://savebiodiesel.org/detail.html

At the bottom of that page is a good list of references, including technical documents that are linked for anyone who wants to dig further into this topic.

Thanks so much to everyone who has put relevant information in this thread, especially Graydon and Kumar, for having gotten this important conversation started.

Please sign the petition to urge the OEMs to start making their new vehicles biodiesel compatible!

http://www.thepetitionsite.com/1/save-biodiesel
 
Registered: April 13, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post



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I did my part and signed already. I do not particularly care about the petition websites. this one works. However do becarefull if you sign others.


1999 F-250 Running B-50 and getting over 24 miles per Gallon. and getting +/- 380 ftlbs of torque from modifications HA HA HEH! OOH! RAH! Semper Fi!
 
Location: Redding | Registered: December 21, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by john galt:
quote:
urge the OEMs to start making their new vehicles biodiesel compatible!

No, I don't see any point in that. There is only enough VO available to make B5 blends widely available and most new vehicles are already compatible with that. If you want to selfishly use more than 5% BD or VO then there is an adequate supply of used vehicles that can use that fuel.
You use more than 5% bio in your vehicle, dont you? Include yourself in this "selfish" accusation then.
 
Location: Colorado | Registered: March 20, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Yeah the point is clearly that for over 100 years diesel engines have been able to run on petro diesel, biodiesel or even SVO without problems. Only when biodiesel started to become popular did this new design change show up.



When I go to the fuel station just up the road from my house there is 4 B20 pumps and only 2 regular diesel pumps. No where on those pumps does it say "Don't use this fuel in your 07 or newer vehicle". So some unsuspecting customer trying to be green and pays a premium for that fuel starts running it in is new F350 and develops problems, the blame will be put back on the BD as bad fuel. He tells his friends it screwed up his new truck and the snowballs starts down the hill from there...

-Ken


Recycling & Green Fuels Research: www.altfuelsgroup.org
Ozone Eating Toys For Big Boys !!: www.suncoastexotics.com
Carefully Maintaining A Carbon Neutral Footprint...


Imagebd20.JPG (40 Kb, 149 downloads) B20 Pump
 
Location: Southeastern Ohio | Registered: January 10, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Better yet, read this sticker on a B15 pump at a Pilot in Gainesville FL. That was taken less than 6 months ago. Specifically states "Required For Use In All Model Year 2007 Later". Yes that pertains to Low Sulfur requirements, but how many people are going to understand this could also screw up that new duramax they are filling up??

"It's All Bullchit And It's Bad For Ya!"
The Late George Carlin




Recycling & Green Fuels Research: www.altfuelsgroup.org
Ozone Eating Toys For Big Boys !!: www.suncoastexotics.com
Carefully Maintaining A Carbon Neutral Footprint...


Imageb15-pump.JPG (45 Kb, 206 downloads)
 
Location: Southeastern Ohio | Registered: January 10, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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B20 is averaging 10 to 15 cents per gallon higher than dino diesel.

I'm not positive, but think it is currently supplied by plant about 60 miles from here that uses local grown and on site extruded soybean oil as the feedstock.

-Ken


Recycling & Green Fuels Research: www.altfuelsgroup.org
Ozone Eating Toys For Big Boys !!: www.suncoastexotics.com
Carefully Maintaining A Carbon Neutral Footprint...
 
Location: Southeastern Ohio | Registered: January 10, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by john galt:
quote:
Originally posted by UFO:
quote:
Originally posted by john galt:
If you want to selfishly use more than 5% BD or VO then there is an adequate supply of used vehicles that can use that fuel.

You use more than 5% bio in your vehicle, dont you? Include yourself in this "selfish" accusation then.
What's wrong with selfish? This community is so remote that unless used VO is made into biodiesel or used as VO fuel then it's going to the dump. I'll be happy to use less BD if others catch on and use all the BD that the local BD producer can make.
It should be clear that my comment was directed to urban N.America.
Selfish is irresponsible, and you implied you were not by your use of the word "you". It's not at all clear you meant "urban N.America."
 
Location: Colorado | Registered: March 20, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post



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quote:
Originally posted by Kenr34:
Better yet, read this sticker on a B15 pump at a Pilot in Gainesville FL. That was taken less than 6 months ago. Specifically states "Required For Use In All Model Year 2007 Later". Yes that pertains to Low Sulfur requirements, but how many people are going to understand this could also screw up that new duramax they are filling up??

"It's All Bullchit And It's Bad For Ya!"
The Late George Carlin




That appears to be a poor cut and paste photoshop job.



 
Registered: April 28, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by freesoul:

That appears to be a poor cut and paste photoshop job.


OK, would you like a copy of the original full size photo sent directly off my phone, my fuel purchase receipt, or even the GPS coordinates of that Pilot station on I75 ??

Don't feel inflamed, I was also amazed to see it. They are the first National Brand station I've rolled up to selling B15.

As to confirm they are blending a B15, last month I was offered 700 gallons of virgin SVO pumped from a Pilot fuel tank in central Florida. Seems the blender / distributor screwed up and added over 1000 gallons of SVO to an underground storage tank instead of Biodiesel. When it separated out on them they caught the mistake. Pilot paid 2 Tampa recovery companies to remove and dispose of the SVO, One of them intern called me about taking it off their hands and reprocess as BD.

The call went like this, "we have 14 drums of pure palm oil with some small amount of diesel fuel in it, would you like it for free?" I passed the ball to a friend who was local and told him to grab it.

Yes I'll send you the contact details if you think that is BS also. I'm not sure if he picked it up or not..


-Ken


Recycling & Green Fuels Research: www.altfuelsgroup.org
Ozone Eating Toys For Big Boys !!: www.suncoastexotics.com
Carefully Maintaining A Carbon Neutral Footprint...
 
Location: Southeastern Ohio | Registered: January 10, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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