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Why 2007 & Newer ULSD Emission Vehicles Don't Like Biodiesel
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I'm trying to find out.


Kumar Plocher
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Location: Ukiah, CA USA | Registered: September 19, 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Thanks Graydon, this is an excellent summary.

WOW, I LIKE IT... A SELF FILLING OIL SUMP!!!!!!!!!!

Never having to worry about checking your oil at the filling station, and then having to dig around the back of the pickup for another quart of oil to add.

In this case, always fill the sump to the low mark on the stick... or you could probably get away with filling it to a quart or so below the low mark. The oil really only needs to cover the oil pickup 100% of the time, and have a little extra to absorb heat and impurities.

As mentioned, high oil can be far worse on an engine than low oil. Check your oil levels regularly, and drain if too high. Too bad you can't have a drain on the side of the sump like a transmission... just pop out the side drain and let the level drop back to "normal". I'm not sure how much oil you're talking about... but if you start at 20% below the low mark.. and then the high mark is an additional 20% higher, then by the time the sump is full, you'd have about 40 or 50% BD, and it would be time to change it out.

CHECK YOUR OIL LEVELS!!!!!!

Ok...
Now to the root of the problem.

  • "Conspiracy"... Doubtful. I think the engineers just were clueless, and just tested their vehicles with 100% #2 Diesel. And, of course, design info was shared globally, so now everyone is doing it.
  • "Solvent"... probably not likely to work... as this problem seems to occur with B20 or even lower mixes. The problem apparently is that the Diesel evaporates from the BD, and leaves the BD coating the cylinders.
  • "Dual Fuel". That would depend on how frequently the DPF injection fires. If it is on every stroke, then you wouldn't be able to effectively purge the system. If it fires for say 1 minute out of 10, then it might work, but would be a complicated mess to design.
  • "Exhaust Manifold Injection". This is probably the best. However, it would require a separate (low pressure) injection system. Also, it is a pretty harsh environment for a fuel injector. If the injector would last, then the modification would probably only cost an extra $100 or so (at the factory).


I'm still leaning towards redesigning the lubrication system to include a "dry sump", then using the fuel as lube. This would, however, limit a person to running only SVO or B100, and essentially NEVER run straight #2 Diesel.

And, then the DPF Post Injection would be a mute point, and may even add to the cylinder lube (assuming there wasn't a coking issue).
 
Location: Oregon | Registered: October 17, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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This article may come in handy...
How To Remove A DPF Filter

(I also threw this in the first post under additional resources & will add more as I run across them or as people pose).

Leave it to Diesel Power Magazine to show us how it can be done!

Man I love that magazine!
-Graydon

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Graydon Blair,




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Location: Utah | Registered: October 08, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Why not just use an Oil Mate system with CJ-4 lube oil?

Ken
 
Location: Sellersville, PA | Registered: May 17, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Now that's a cool idea!
But would that engine oil combust properly or would it just cause more problems in the DPF?

Still a neat idea though.
-Graydon




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Location: Utah | Registered: October 08, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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That's a great article! And it answers one question that keeps coming up: how often does the regen happen, or what triggers it?

quote:
The fact is that over time, soot and particulate matter (PM) build up in the DPF element, causing backpressure sensors mounted before and after the DPF to send a message to the ECU to enter an active regeneration mode.


But it also implies that this is not the ONLY signal that triggers a regen, probably happens at set intervals, too. Otherwise the easy fix would just be to knock out all the filter media in that can, and bolt it back on. The 2 back-pressure sensors would always show no plugging, and regen would never happen.
 
Location: Southern WI, USA | Registered: May 18, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post



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I wonder if there's also a "default regen mode" in the systems too (kind of like water softeners that automatically cycle at a set interval whether they need it or not).

I'm betting each manufacturer may implement that slightly different, but yep, sounds like if you could disable those censors in the ECU you'd be set (oh yeah, and knock out the DPF media).




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Location: Utah | Registered: October 08, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I would say this is on my wishlist, but I'm actively working to make it happen:

A federal regulation that all diesel technology from the OEM be tested and proven as 100% biodiesel compatible. AND, that for any that ISN'T, going back 5 years, the OEM's service center will either modify it to make it so for the consumer who requests it, free-of-charge, or offer the consumer a buy-back.

At some point, I expect to turn this into a campaign, so y'all better be ready to spread the word!!!


Kumar Plocher
Yokayo Biofuels
Yokayo Biofuels Facebook page
.........../ \..............
fueling / R \ evolution since 2001
'''''''''''''/____\'''''''''''''''''''

Sustainable Biodiesel...
 
Location: Ukiah, CA USA | Registered: September 19, 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I'm part of a forum dedicated to the Jeep Liberty CRD since I own two of them. These puppies are problematic to say the least - mostly because emissions controls were slapped onto them as a last minute afterthought. Part of the system routes nasty crap into the turbo, the EGR valves are notorious for failing every 20K miles and there are several sensors that need frequent cleaning or the engine simply won't run.

Many of the folks on the forum are diesel mechanics or serious hobbyists and they have figured out a fix for nearly every single problem. One of the guys even created a small circuit board that taps into the ECM and shuts off the EGR (it is NOT needed on the CRD) and then fools the engine into thinking it is on in order to prevent it from throwing a CEL. He has put together a circuit board kit and sold it to hundreds of forum members.

It is truly remarkable what some of the people in these forums can come up with. Think of our own resident genius Graham Laming! Graham, Girl Mark and many others in here have advanced the science and art of brewing significantly in the past 5 years. I guarantee there will be a list of options for dealing with these obnoxious injection oversights within the next few years - probably even kits you can buy. At this point I would side with Legal Eagle: Gut the system & disable it. (I think it is actually a combination of things but as a manufacturing engineer I lean toward thinking these were oversights. Most of them are not familiar with BD so they just designed to what they knew.)
 
Registered: July 03, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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And I'd add that "they designed to what they knew using AS LITTLE new parts as they could"

In otherwords, "Well, we've already got a fuel injector in the system, let's not complicate it, let's just squirt an extra blast of fuel into the piston, vaporize the fuel, & blow it out with an exhaust stroke! Whoala Problem solved! Man, aren't we smart? (as they all pat themselves on the back on the way to the boss man to tell him their plans)"

It was easy to implement, only required a tweak to a software program (the ECU), the addition of two sensors (one fore & one aft of the DPF), and the DPF and catalyst tank.

http://www.dieselpowermag.com/tech/general/0810dp_diese...delete/photo_01.html


http://www.dieselpowermag.com/tech/general/0810dp_diese...delete/photo_03.html

Problem solved! (or so they thought).

Also, check out how fine of material is in that DPF!

http://www.dieselpowermag.com/tech/general/0810dp_diese...delete/photo_04.html

Or shall we call it the Fuel Mileage Robber!




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Location: Utah | Registered: October 08, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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This is what it looks like on a Dodge when you remove it...

http://www.dieselpowermag.com/tech/general/0810dp_diese...delete/photo_09.html

Ah, beautiful, ain't it?




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Location: Utah | Registered: October 08, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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OMG! What a fiasco. Roll Eyes
 
Location: West Michigan | Registered: April 26, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post



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I forgot to add, I had breakfast this morning with two dodge mechanics, when I brought up this subject it got very interesting, these guys
HATE those Fing things, they have several trucks a week come in with plugged dpf's or malfunctioning dpf's or trucks not running right because of plugged dpf's, turbo diesels need huge volumes of air and they also need to get rid of huge volumes of air, so what do the geniuses do? Slap on a big old powerful blower up front then plug up the tail pipe with this garbage.
They have actually had new truck owners screaming, eye bulging, spitting mad because their brand new truck gets 2mpg less than the old one because of these things, according to these guys they have service managers at lots of dealerships complaining up the ladder about these things, they knew of two new truck owners who are starting lemon law procedings.
 
Location: West Michigan | Registered: April 26, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I still don't understand why the EPA had to go from such lax emission standards to the new Tier II Bin 5 Standards. It's a joke!

Don't ya love that DPF material?
Fuel Mileage Power Robbing thing that it is!

And the sad thing, all of the Big 3 did it too!
(And Mercedes, and VW!)

Is it me or does it seem like the EPA just has it out for diesels in the US?

Suffice it to say, I bet the performance shops are doing REALLY WELL right now pulling those DPF's off of new trucks...

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Graydon Blair,




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Location: Utah | Registered: October 08, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by Graydon Blair:
Suffice it to say, I bet the performance shops are doing REALLY WELL right now pulling those DPF's off of new trucks...


If they are, they better not get caught! Stiff fines and penalties for removing and/or disabling emission control equipment in this country. You are not even supposed to do it your self, but ther are few who abide by this law. HTH Smile


Blessings. Joe 1999 Chevy Suburban w/new optimizer 6500 TD and 1995 Chevy Cube van 6.5L. WWW.RillaBioFuels.com
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Location: Sterling Hts. Michigan USA | Registered: October 18, 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by john galt:
For half the money wasted on one of those instantly obsolete computerized wonderwaggons a person could buy an older more reliable diesel vehicle and have it fully restored to like new condition, AND converted to run on VO biofuel.


You could do the same with an old gas guzzler. But what you would not get is the power and mileage improvements that have come with the advancements in engine controls. Also, you would not get niceities like ABS, Traction control, On Star, or other creature comforts. Personally, I REALLY want to take a nice old big sedan and put a HO diesel in it! Smile


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Location: Sterling Hts. Michigan USA | Registered: October 18, 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by kumar:
I would say this is on my wishlist, but I'm actively working to make it happen:

A federal regulation that all diesel technology from the OEM be tested and proven as 100% biodiesel compatible. AND, that for any that ISN'T, going back 5 years, the OEM's service center will either modify it to make it so for the consumer who requests it, free-of-charge, or offer the consumer a buy-back.

At some point, I expect to turn this into a campaign, so y'all better be ready to spread the word!!!


I'm with you Kumar. the question I placed on Obama's site raises just that issue. It has been getting favorable responses as have yours.


The smell of my exhaust makes me hungry!
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Location: Southern Indiana | Registered: June 26, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Why 2008 & Newer ULSD Emission Vehicles Don't Like Biodiesel

You might want to correct your thread title to show its 2007 and newer vehicles that have this DPF problem.


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Location: N. Colorado | Registered: August 31, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post



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quote:
Originally posted by Bunk:
Why not just use an Oil Mate system with CJ-4 lube oil?

Ken


That is similar to what I had in mind.

Except that 100% of the fuel would be from the lubrication system.

And, I think a "dry sump" as used in race cars would be easier to manage the oil than pulling it out of the oil pan.

Then either veggie oil or biodiesel could be used for lube.

The main problem that people have run into with using veggie as lube seems a relatively short lifespan for the oil with catastrophic results if not renewed.
 
Location: Oregon | Registered: October 17, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
you would not get is the power and mileage improvements that have come with the advancements in engine controls.

bullfudge... My '89 Toyota diesel gets 26-28 MPG with NO computer controls, AND meets current emission standards. Don't believe what the marketing mavens con you into thinking.


quote:
Also, you would not get niceities like ABS, Traction control, On Star, or other creature comforts.
Gimmicks for the most part, which won't outlive the warranty.

The important features are all available pre 2000 without all the mileage robbing crap controls that this discussion is about.



 
Location: coldest N.America | Registered: May 03, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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