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Why 2007 & Newer ULSD Emission Vehicles Don't Like Biodiesel

I just had a great chat with Jeff @ SunBreak Biofuels (Great guy!) & learned some interesting things about why these new fangled 2007+ Emission Diesel Vehicles aren't liking Biodiesel.

Here's what he shared....
To meet the new emission standards, diesel engine manufacturers have added a "post-combustion" burst of fuel into the cylinder.

What's this mean?
Well, it means that after the compression stroke is done and the cylinder is in the down position, as it heads into the exhaust stroke, the fuel injector sprays a dose of fuel into the cylinder.

Why?
The theory is that by spraying fuel into an already heated cylinder chamber, the heat will vaporize the fuel (not burn it, just vaporize it) and the exhaust stroke will push this unburned fuel out with the exhaust.

This unburned fuel then hits the new Diesel Particulate Filters (DPF) and helps to burn off the particulates built up on the DPF.

In otherwords, the engine manufacturers have found that by squirting unburned fuel into the exhaust, it hits the DPF with hot exhaust gasses & more fully burns off the particulates that have built up on the DPF's.

The Problem With Biodiesel
Biodiesel is "leaking" into the crankcase oil.

This happens because Biodiesel doesn't "vaporize" as fast as diesel fuel (because it has a much higher boiling point, one of it's supposed "strong points").

Because it doesn't vaporize as well, a portion of it sticks to the piston walls instead of all going out with the exhaust gasses.

As the piston goes back down and then heads back up into the compression stroke, the Biodiesel is blowing right past the rings down into the crankcase and getting into the engine oil.

But wait, it gets worse!

Biodiesel in engine oil isn't ALL that bad because, well, it does have a bit of viscosity to it (quite a bit in fact, enough that we like to even brag about it)....but the problem is that over time the Biodiesel raises the level of the oil in the crank-case to the point that the crankshaft can start "splashing" in the Biodiesel-laden engine oil.

This can cause "foaming" to occur, and then as the foam builds up inside the engine, "too much of a good thing" can start to hurt the components.

So how bad is it?
Well, according to VW, after using B5 in a new engine for a few thousand miles, they drained out the crankcase oil and over 40% of the oil was contaminated with Biodiesel.

According to Jeff Brandt, even in his new Dodge Ram, he's seen contamination building up with as little as 1800 miles of driving.

He said when he drained out the oil it was really liquidy, almost like the consistency of water.

What About The DPF?
My initial thought with these things was that the Biodiesel was also fouling these, but Jeff's take is that the exhaust gasses are hot enough that any Bio that gets in there is doing it's job & burning right & he's yet to hear of a plugged DPF because of Biodiesel use in the vehicle.

So What Can Be Done?
Some engine manufacturer's have installed a small fuel injector in the exhaust itself to spray the fuel with instead of adding a "post-injection" squirt of fuel in the cylinder.

This gets rid of the issue completely.

For those engines that squirt the fuel as a "Post-combustion injection" (after the combustion has occured in the piston), it may be possible to override the computer and stop the "post-combustion" fuel being injected; but it's tricky.

If you don't remove the DPF and you do eliminate this "post injection" it can cause the DPF's to get plugged up.

You can also remove the DPF on the vehicle, but this technically makes the vehicle illegal to drive on public roads making it an "off-road vehicle" only.

The other option would be to override the computer so that it will only perform the post-combustion injection if you're running Diesel fuel, but that'd require some sort of manual intervention from the driver to tell the computer that there's only diesel in the tank.

Jeff thinks that we may see a couple things happen in the near future.
1) Someone may be able to develop an additive that can lower Biodiesel's boiling point (kind of far fetched admittedly and a lot of work to do)
2) Aftermarket "tuning chips" will be made available to kill that "post-combustion" injection in the computer
3) People will just rip out the DPF's and kill the "post-combustion injection" altogether & drive the trucks on road anyway.

By the way, killing that Post-combustion injection event may even get you a couple extra miles per gallon.

Either way, it's not a great thing for those of us wanting to run high blends of Biodiesel in new diesel vehicles.

Neither he nor I know exactly how Ford & GM are accomplishing reducing the emissions, but Jeff thinks that they're both doing something similar (post-combusion injection event).

So.....
...for those of you wanting to run Bio in your new post emission vehicle, be sure to check the engine oil constantly to ensure the level isn't getting too high and also change the oil out more often if you plan to run high blends.

Anyway, figured since this was news to me I thought I'd pass it on.

Jeff said if he has time he'll come in here & post to this thread with anything additional he hears about as well.

Additional Resources
I'll be adding to this section as people post resources & forum posts about this issue.

Biodiesel Magazine Article
Understanding the Post-injection Problem

Diesel Power Magazine
Article on how to remove a DPF filter (This article has "Mysteriously" been removed...hmmmm)
(WARNING: Removing the DPF makes your truck "For Off-Road Use Only" and voids the warranty.)

Infopop Forum Posts
B100 use in post-injection modern diesels, leading to high engine wear
Biodiesel getting into engine oil
Mechanics Please Help: Problems with '07 6.7L Dodge

BurnVeg Forum Post:
Warning:danger of using VO/>B5 on many vehicles >=2007

Diesel Place Forum Post:
Removing a DPF on a Duramax

Below is a list of engine manufacturers that produce diesel engines sold in the United States.

If you'd like to see this issue changed in the future, be sure to write to your favorite engine manufacturer below and let them know that you'd like to see their DPF design changed so as to allow Biodiesel to be used in blends higher than B5 in their engines.

Case New Holland
Harold Boyanovsky
President and Chief Executive Officer
CHN Global N.V.
100 South Saunders Road
Lake Forest, IL 60045 USA

Cummins
Theodore M Solso
Chairman and Chief Executive Officer
Cummins
PO Box 3005
Columbus IN 47202-3005

GM/Chevrolet
G. Richard Wagoner, Jr
Chairman and Chief Executive Officer
General Motors
300 Renaissance Center
Detroit, MI 48265

Volkswagen
Len Hunt
Executive Vice President
Volkswagen of America, Inc.
2200 Ferdinand Porsche Road
Herndon, VA 20171

Caterpillar
James Owens
Chairman and Chief Executive Officer
Caterpillar Inc.
100 NE Adams Street,
Peoria, Illinois 61629

Detroit Diesel
Carsten Reinhardt
President and Chief Executive Officer
Detroit Diesel Corporation
13400 Outer Dr. West
Detroit, MI 48239-4001

International
Daniel Ustian
President and Chief Executive Officer
Navistar International
4201 Winfield Rd
Warrenville, IL 60555

Mercedes
Ernst Lieb
President and CEO
Mercedes-Benz USA
Mercedes Benz One Mercedes Drive
P.O. Box 350
Montvale, New Jersey 07645

Chrysler/Dodge/Jeep
Robert Nardelli
Chairman and Chief Executive Officer
Chrysler LLC.
PO Box 21-8004
Auburn Hills, MI 48321-8004

Ford Motor Company
Alan Mulally
President and CEO
Ford Motor Company
The American Rd.
Dearborn, MI 28121

John Deere
Robert W. Lane
Chairman and Chief Executive Officer
Deere & Company World Headquarters
One John Deere Place
Moline, Illinois 61265

Honda
John Mendel
Executive Vice President
American Honda Motor Co.
1919 Torrance Blvd.
Torrance, CA 90501

For a great example of points to cover in your letter, be sure to check out the Spring 2009 Biodiesel Magazine article by Kumar Plocher (page 6). See more info on Biodiesel Smarter here:
http://www.utahbiodieselsupply...biodieselsmarter.php


Feel free to comment, correct, or post to this....this was just news to me & I thought I'd pass it on.

-Graydon

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Graydon Blair,




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Location: Utah | Registered: October 08, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Yes this has been discussed at length in these threads (and many others), but its important enough to keep re-posting about it:
B100 use in post-injection modern diesels, leading to high engine wear

Warning:danger of using VO/>B5 on many vehicles >=2007

Biodiesel getting into engine oil


YVORMV - Your veg. oil results may vary, see www.burnveg.com/forum
95 Dodge Cummins 4x4 +87 300TD wagon Running on 2 tank WVO, 81 Mercedes 300D on V80/D20 blend
Low fossil house- 100% solar/wind power, 90% solar heated.
 
Location: N. Colorado | Registered: August 31, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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There are some people working on the problem, but its not easy, it involves doing the following hacking (differently) for each vehicle:
You need to remove the physical DPF and reprogram the fuel injection tables to prevent the late stage fuel injection and finally, reprogram the MIL indication light to prevent the Malfunction or "Check engine" light from coming on. All of which void the warrranty, are illegal, and may not work.


YVORMV - Your veg. oil results may vary, see www.burnveg.com/forum
95 Dodge Cummins 4x4 +87 300TD wagon Running on 2 tank WVO, 81 Mercedes 300D on V80/D20 blend
Low fossil house- 100% solar/wind power, 90% solar heated.
 
Location: N. Colorado | Registered: August 31, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Here is another recent good thread about this, the problem is popping up everywhere:
Mechanics Please Help: Problems with '07 6.7L Dodge


YVORMV - Your veg. oil results may vary, see www.burnveg.com/forum
95 Dodge Cummins 4x4 +87 300TD wagon Running on 2 tank WVO, 81 Mercedes 300D on V80/D20 blend
Low fossil house- 100% solar/wind power, 90% solar heated.
 
Location: N. Colorado | Registered: August 31, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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A custom burned chip, that's the only thing that is going to work long-term, mass use, and legally.

What I see: the Regen is disabled at all times, with a timer built in to the new chip that blinks your Check Engine light at some set interval (so as to discern it from an actual engine problem which will light the Check Engine solidly). When you see the light, you need to run 100% diesel in the next tank full, hit some sort of indicator button under the dash to clear the light & inform the chip diesel is in the tank, then the chip allows Regen for some interval that corresponds to less than that tank full and you move on.

So to run B100 in your new diesel, right away you are gonna know you need to drop $300 on a chip, assuming somebody actually sees the need to make and market one. Or $1000 for a one-off chip.

Yeah, I'll be running 12V Cummins trucks the rest of my life. 12V in the Bronco, 12V in the Cherokee, 12V in the Kaiser, 12V the Rat Rod, 12V every truck I lay my hand on until I'm old and gray and senile from the french-fry fumes.
 
Location: Southern WI, USA | Registered: May 18, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I've been wondering if it's possible to set up a two-tank system with a sensor that is triggered by the 'regen' cycle, and switches the fuel supply over to diesel for just the regen. It should be easy to do (just use a OBD-II or whatever the modern equivalent is, to give the two-tank kit's microcontroller the signal to switch over to diesel). That assumes that the regen runs long enough to make that switchover make sense.

I htink this is first suggested by someone in one of the above posts that Sunwizard probably just linked.
 
Location: Pittsboro, North Carolina | Registered: March 07, 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post



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Graydon,

Another option would be to have a small dino-diesel-only tank for the DPF, but I suspect that would also mean a separate injection pump. But any way you slice it, it's not good.

Yes, thank God that the EPA has decided to make vehicles that used to get 22 mpg, and 'vastly improve' their emissions so that they now get 14 mpg 10 years later. Dodge Ram with the cummins engine has done exactly this. So drop fuel economy by 35%, producing tons more carbon dioxide, but it's so much better because there's 0.0001% less other 'bad' emissions AND fund our favorite terrorists in one breath. I only wonder if the EPA is headed by some Saudi Nationals! Meanwhile 90% of other nations are laughing at us & getting twice our fuel economy, with only slightly worse emissions and not giving a hoot about emissions...

Gritch moan.
-tony
 
Location: Central Texas | Registered: December 26, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by Graydon Blair:
So in the EPA's effort to "improve air quality", they've managed to bring us trucks that MAY have cleaner exhaust


Sadly, that's not even the case, as the older engines were much cleaner running on biodiesel than these newer ones are running on diesel.

BTW, this is the kind of engine that CARB is requiring owners of CA diesel trucks 15k GVW and higher to switch over to in the next few years, at a retrofit cost of around $20k per vehicle (assuming you don't want to dish out $100k for a new rig). I assume this will be fought, HARD, by all the fleet folks, myself included, already dealing with this **** economy.

Next step, I'm sure, is schoolbusses.

They don't make it easy for us, folks.


Kumar Plocher
Yokayo Biofuels
Yokayo Biofuels Facebook page
.........../ \..............
fueling / R \ evolution since 2001
'''''''''''''/____\'''''''''''''''''''

Sustainable Biodiesel...
 
Location: Ukiah, CA USA | Registered: September 19, 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Here's the letter I sent to my potentially-affected customers upon finding out:

quote:
Dear valued customer, October 29, 2008

Yokayo Biofuels recently encountered a situation that you need to be informed about. One of our customers, an owner of a 2007 Dodge 6.7L diesel pickup, took his truck in for an oil change at the dealership, and found out that in the prior ~8,500 miles, almost 2 gallons of fuel had accumulated in the motor oil. How did this happen, and why are we telling you about it? Apparently, it was directly related to the diesel particulate filter (DPF) “post-injection” system in the truck, and it has nothing to do with fuel quality (the biodiesel used was in a B80 blend, and was tested as ASTM spec). We’re telling you because, based on our database, your vehicle may have a similar DPF system.
The good news is that the vehicle did not appear to be damaged or suffering in any way, beyond a deteriorating valve cover gasket that was due to the solvent properties of biodiesel. So far, I am only aware of the fuel dilution issue happening with 2007 or later Dodge diesels, but it could very well happen in other 2007 or later makes and models, as they are generally using the same type of DPF technology. I am not a mechanic, and have been relying on various reports on the internet to try to understand this problem (talking to Dodge has been entirely unproductive, unfortunately). You can follow the conversation at any of these links:

http://www.biodieselmagazine.com/article.jsp?article_id=2290&q=&page=1

http://biodiesel.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/419605551/m/7441014642/p/1

http://biodiesel.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/41960555...111045942#7111045942

The information in the Biodiesel Magazine article is particularly informative. It suggests that the problem exists even using B20, and possibly with concentrations as low as B5. Currently, most if not all of the diesel vehicle manufacturers have publicly supported the use of B5, and Dodge has even come out in favor of the use of B20 in its pickups. I tried to bring this conflicting data up with the foreman at a local Dodge service center, and his advice (contrary to official statements coming from Dodge) was “Don’t use biodiesel.” Since that was not a satisfying response, I brought up the most commonly suggested solution to the problem- installing a “DPF delete kit”, available from many aftermarket parts suppliers on the internet. Because I am aware that dealerships often try to deny warranty based on the installation of such kits, I asked if there were a Dodge-sanctioned way of eliminating the DPF system, which performs no function other than emission controls, which are not necessary when running biodiesel. He said that there is not. I have not checked with other manufacturers (no actual example of issues to point to yet), but I imagine the response would be similar.
So, unfortunately, if you have a DPF on your vehicle, the engine manufacturers appear to have left you in the lurch. Installing a DPF delete kit may turn out to be the only way to safely run biodiesel in your vehicle in the long run, but it will cost you the money for parts and labor, and it will make future dealings with the dealership potentially more expensive. I am quite certain that this problem will be corrected in future models, as the National Biodiesel Board begins to catch wind of this, and exert pressure on the engine manufacturers. In the meantime, it would be worthwhile to check your vehicle to see if this dilution is occurring. If not, that’s great. Keep an eye on it, and it may never be a problem. It’s still very hard to tell whether the case with our customer will be commonplace or not.

Sincerely,



Kumar Plocher
President, Yokayo Biofuels


Kumar Plocher
Yokayo Biofuels
Yokayo Biofuels Facebook page
.........../ \..............
fueling / R \ evolution since 2001
'''''''''''''/____\'''''''''''''''''''

Sustainable Biodiesel...
 
Location: Ukiah, CA USA | Registered: September 19, 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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The EPA has nothing to do with what idiotic technology the automakers decided to use. There were a number of other ways they could have accomplished the same particulate reduction goal, but they all chose to use a (particularly, ha ha) bad one both from the perspective of biodiesel, and of fuel economy.
 
Location: Pittsboro, North Carolina | Registered: March 07, 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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You know, in chatting with Jeff, it seems the easiest solution to fixing them so they'd run Bio would've been to stick an injector in the exhaust system itself & kill the Post-Combustion Injection in the piston.

This would've eliminated the problem all-together because A) No Bio would be squirted on the pistons post-combustion B) The DPF would still work with Bio being sprayed into the exhaust.

I'm guessing it has to do with the heat inside that piston helping to vaporize the fuel, but I'd imagine it's pretty darn hot in the exhaust manifold too....

Just my take on it.

Like I said, I sure hope Honda has come up with something better. I guess CAT has already stuck an injector in the exhaust making them easily adaptable to Bio.....

-Graydon




Utah Biodiesel Supply - Biodiesel Supplies, Parts, Kits, Tutorials, Decals & More
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Free Biodiesel Tutorial Videos - Learn to make Biodiesel through videos!
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Location: Utah | Registered: October 08, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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As an initial solution, I tend toward Ryan's idea, with a little more automation...

Develop and install sensor to measure or infer the concentration of Biodiesel in the fuel (they can already infer the concentration of Ethanol in Gasoline). Upon requiring a DPF burn off, allow it if B0 is sensed, flash a lamp if not, so the driver can put B0 in next time.

The potential problem with this is the frequency of the DPF burn off. I have no idea how often the engine controller thinks it is necessary, but if it is more than once per tank of fuel, this solution is a non-starter anyway.

I think a better solution, which will rapidly be adopted, is the injection of the burn off fuel downstream of the engine itself. As noted, this will eliminate the issue completely. I doubt that this would require an expensive high pressure injector either.

Horn
 
Location: Flint, MI | Registered: February 24, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post



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Remove DPF, gut it, replace. Reprogram to disable and be done with it. Any emissions test done on your vehicle while running B100 will come back with a pass anyway, so what's the big deal to be in full compliance ? Politics is all about appearing-to-do anyway. Merely MO.



**My reactor/processor :B100WH.com
**B100 Heated Winter System
** Biodiesel Glycerine Soap - The Guide
- on 5 continents helping people make & sell soap from the Biodiesel Glycerine.
** Interview with RolfQuo Biodiesel commercial use of wood chips for filtering biodiesel

** Don't tell me who you are, show me what you do and I will tell you who you are.- Jerry Rubin**

** Try not to become a man of success but rather to become a man of value. -Albert Einstein**

**When truth cannot be refuted it is tyranny's job to silence the messenger - me**
 
Location: :-) Great White North eh ? | Registered: December 10, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I think that it is a conspiracy. the oil companys influance the auto makers. after all we are the compitition. If the biodiesel makers are all stamped out sooner or later . then we have to buy from the oil company. the monopoly is regained . control of the people is their goal.



just my 2 cents from (Ron's X files)
 
Location: New Orleans. Area  | Registered: February 25, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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The number of people using B100 is vanishingly small; there is no competition. I doubt if they even think about B100, and if they did, quickly dismissed it as an insignificant market. They only want to meet whatever emission standards are required to sell more overpriced new vehicles.

N'attribuez jamais à la malveillance ce qui relève purement de l'incompétence ( Napoléon)

Never ascribe to malice that which is adequately explained by incompetence. Napoleon Bonaparte



 
Location: coldest N.America | Registered: May 03, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
N'attribuez jamais à la malveillance ce qui relève purement de l'incompétence ( Napoléon)

Never ascribe to malice that which is adequately explained by incompetence. Napoleon Bonaparte


Well, it certainly IS one or the other, either intentional malice or gross incompetance, although when you look at Mercedes and their dumping down on the quality of their injectors and IP since 2006, which have nothing to do with emissions, making their new models biodiesel incompatible the choice is clear. One poster here asked a dealer about The Smart car and others' inability to use B100 and was told that "they are too advanced for it" pretty much capped it for me.

Intentional malice gets my vote.

The homebased market may be seen as insignificant at first glance now, but with the popularity of BD and other homebased fuels gaining ground, not to mention governments mandating biodiesel use in all fuel levels in ever increasing percentages is just one more thing that the greedy and the control freekish oil and car industies,who are in bed together or we'd have a wide selection of vehicles powered by anything BUT fosil fuels, get nervous about and in their paranoia and substantial financial reserves wish to quash anything that even hints at breaking away from their grip.

Remember, there is no price fixing at the pumps, they all sell at the same price out of sheer coincidence (and government mandating pricing).

Oil prices do what they want to do when they want to do it and no one can do anything to stop them 'cause they have governmental approval for what they are doing no matter the harm to the social infrasture or thhose who suffer from price gouging.

When fuel prices went sky high over the last years we were all told about this sing song about demand having fallen off and that caused the increase, and then the fiscal meltdown started happening and petrol dropped like a rock but diesel stayed disproportionately high (keeping the hurt going as all prices fall directly from transportation costs and they all use diesel fuel). The old hold out about home heating oil be the culprit is always ready to be pulled out but when is the last time you heard of a diesel pump running dry in winter ? Has NEVER happened here. Only home heating issue I've heard of is Citco in the USA offering low income people a break on fuel oil so they wouldn't have to decide between food and heat but this was from that 'tyrant Hugo Chavez' so it doesn't count ... Exxon didn't bat an eye at freezing people to death and still couldn't give a crap. Big Oil doesn't have one altruistic bone in it's entire structural makeup
so going from there to conspiring with auto makers to see to it that the monopoly (which is clearly anti-trust) keeps going is not that far of a stretch.



**My reactor/processor :B100WH.com
**B100 Heated Winter System
** Biodiesel Glycerine Soap - The Guide
- on 5 continents helping people make & sell soap from the Biodiesel Glycerine.
** Interview with RolfQuo Biodiesel commercial use of wood chips for filtering biodiesel

** Don't tell me who you are, show me what you do and I will tell you who you are.- Jerry Rubin**

** Try not to become a man of success but rather to become a man of value. -Albert Einstein**

**When truth cannot be refuted it is tyranny's job to silence the messenger - me**
 
Location: :-) Great White North eh ? | Registered: December 10, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Yeah, I vote for incompetence.

troy
 
Location: north america somewhere close to the midwest, or not | Registered: May 29, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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great info Graydon, thanks. Kind o reminds me of 1957 when a chevy coud get 21mpg w/ plastic seat covers and no seat belt. Now its over 50 years gone by and EPA gets us about 18mpg for a car of the same weight. Of course now you get a safe seat for the squeelers too. Yup love the EPA.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Shaun,


Will
 
Location: Valley Center | Registered: August 02, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post



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#1: this is NOT about B100. This is about stamping out all blends, because none of them work with this technology, as currently designed/constructed.

#2: in California, they are FORCING all truck owners over 15k GVWR to switch to this, at owner's expense. The regulation is set, and has to be taken down. This will kill the California biodiesel industry.

#3: the perpetrator here is the California Air Resources Board, which is the reason why the OEMs are putting in these things in the first place. Lest anyone believe that CARB is fuel neutral and just cares about the environment, they should look at CARB's history of being anti-biodiesel (a recent example is biodiesel being left out of the Carl Moyer program, which forced people to replace stationary diesel engines with propane and CNG alternatives). CARB is trying to outlaw biodiesel and biodiesel blends in CA, and by doing so, is influencing the OEMs, and the future of biodiesel in America.


Kumar Plocher
Yokayo Biofuels
Yokayo Biofuels Facebook page
.........../ \..............
fueling / R \ evolution since 2001
'''''''''''''/____\'''''''''''''''''''

Sustainable Biodiesel...
 
Location: Ukiah, CA USA | Registered: September 19, 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
#1: this is NOT about B100. This is about stamping out all blends, because none of them work with this technology, as currently designed/constructed.

So what is your national biodiesel lobby organization doing about it?



 
Location: coldest N.America | Registered: May 03, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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