Hey all,

I am just wondering about the safety of using electircal pump in the biodiesel processor. I have a little bit of confussion, because many topics in this forum discuss about the explosion prevention by eliminating or minimizing the use of electric equipment, but on the other hands, most of the fabricated biodiesel processors still use electrical pump.

So, the main question that I am curious is, is it safe to use electrical pump when it is used to pump the biodiesel? In this case, when there is no presence of methanol vapour. On the other words, when the substance handled is methyl esters (biodiesel), not in the form of methoxide anymore.


Thanks,
Nicholas

Basic fuel handling safety.
Don't use anything that makes sparks.

Does the NT clear water pump spark?

Ive been using the NT and the HF pumps for a few years now. Once I dumped a bunch of biodiesel on top of a running pump, and it didn't do anything beyond making a big mess and causing me to swear a lot.

But don't try this at home. I may have just been lucky. But it does prove that electric pumps are not a total safety hazzard all the time.

Hello Wayne

quote:

Originally posted by Wayne Seymour:
But it does prove that electric pumps are not a total safety hazzard all the time.

You are correct. They are a much bigger safety hazard if they are on fire.

I understand that the NT pump does not have over temperature/ overload protection either

I can't talk about the NT pump, but the HF pump doesn't spark, unless there's a problem. The motor is brushless, and, at least the one I opened up was very well built, but there have been some reports of the capacitors blowing up and catching fire, so if you use an HF pump, I recommend you replace it with a better one.

quote:

You are correct. They are a much bigger safety hazard if they are on fire.

LOL. Very true Tilly!!!

No, the NT pump does not have any temp/overload protection. I don't believe the HF pump does either. They seem pretty similar. Definetly a drawback, but they are so cheap to buy!

Berny, good info on the motor. I never took one apart, but that would explain why nothing ignited.

quote:

Originally posted by ano1987:

I have a little bit of confusion, because many topics in this forum discuss about the explosion prevention by eliminating or minimizing the use of electric equipment, but on the other hands, most of the fabricated biodiesel processors still use electrical pump.

For some reason which still escapes me, there are many people who seem to have a complete and utter safety obsession and choose to ignore simple and basic facts.

Many safety zealots come up with all sorts of elaborate and flawed plans to increase the "safety" of handling meth while ignoring its basic physical properties and having any kind of real and proper understanding of what they are dealing with and what constitutes an actual danger from this stuff.

The fact above all else remains that if you use the Meth in a well ventilated area where the fumes cannot build up to the level that is needed to create a fire be there a spark or a bonfire nearby in the first place, the stuff simply cannot pose a threat.

In order to prevent any sort of meth fume buildup, all that would be needed is a fan placed just outside the door of whatever enclosed building the meth was being used in blowing fresh, moving air into the area and a fire or explosion becomes a physical impossibility.
End of story.

If you have a window at the other end of the building, so much the better still.
If you make fresh air a priority before worrying about electrical sparks, you will never have a problem with any equipment you use and far more importantly, your own health.

I have suggested this before and then had ignorant cretins carry on about " what if the fan motor you are blowing the air in with creates sparks? " and other such demonstrations of the fact these people have not got any proper understanding of the topic they so love to spread unfounded fear and misinformation about.

Worrying about the electrical appliances creating a spark is putting the cart before the horse. Forget about wether the pump makes sparks or not, go buy one that makes as many sparks as possible! You will NEVER have any trouble if you address what its really important which is to never let the meth fumes build to a dangerous level for a fire or for your own health by ensuring the area you are working in is properly ventilated preferably with an outside supply of forced fresh air.

When Building a bio making shed for a friend, we left a 300mm (12") gap in the walls above the level of the floor so any vapors could not collect and normal air currents as well as the fan in the shed roof would quickly disperse any vapors that did escape.

As a bit of overkill, all pumps and other electrical devices were placed above ground level where they would be above the level of any heavier than air fumes.

A person could literally pour a gallon ( or 50 ) of meth on the floor in there and not be able to cause a fire or explosion with the electrical equipment if they tried.

Still, You will see many people coming up with all sorts of fear mongering and alarmist Bullchit over this because if they acknowledged the basic facts, they would have nothing to post about.

I do not know the significance of the danger the pumps Tilly talks about but the fact these motors are unprotected would be far more concern to me and of much greater significance.

The pumps I use are protected and I have seen this cut in many times when circulating oil in my drying/ filtering tank due to the thick, cold oil overloading them. They get hot enough before they kick out, I have no trouble at all envisioning an unprotected motor that may have 750W of mains power or more running through it getting hot enough to catch or cause a fire if it should overload and be left to it's own devices.


Forget about the sparks from a motor or anything else, make sure the fumes never get to a level they could cause a problem and make sure your pump has basic electrical protection built in.

both of those pumps are brushless AC motors. Which means that they are non-sparking. As such, as long as you are not putting methanol fumes into your workspace (which would be bad for your health anyways), I would consider them to be "safe" - that of course is capacitor blowing / no overload protection aside.

If you are concerned about the cap blowing, get a soft starter, they can be had from square D for about 130 bucks.

If you are concerned about lack of thermal overload protection, buy a proper contactor with a thermal overload feature - that will run you around 50 bucks.

I personally, would go the full route and buy a better pump / motor set (350 ish bucks) and a VFD (175 ish bucks) and that way you don't have to worry about it and you will end up with a pump/motor set with alot more oomph, plus you will be the coolest kid on your block. Think about it - saving 3.5+ a gallon, how many gallons do you have to make to get payback on a 525 dollar investment?

edit: its approximately 150 gallons.

DCS - No thermal overload means your pump could get hot enough to cause something other than methanol vapors to catch fire, which could ignite your methanol container, your garage, your barrel of veg oil / biodiesel, your house etc.

Bottom line, you should never have a system which can vent methanol vapors into the area where you are working. Your processor should be sealed and provide a relief path to a safe area.

People who live in residential zones will never be able to comply with the requirements for hazardous areas. Light switches / breakers / fans etc. are all sources of sparks that contain sufficient energy to ignite methanol fumes. Also, no one will ever have a proper CH4 monitoring system which will tell them exactly when they are approaching a potentially explosive atmosphere. Hence the importance of making sure you don't put fumes in what amoutns to an unmonitored and uncontrolled environment.

Good and proper system engineering plays a large role as well. Making sure you don't have things which can get hot near other things which can easily be ignited and burn. Of course it's all common sense, but, if sense was common, everyone would have it and clearly not everyone has it.

you talk about "cretins" carrying on and asking "what if" questions. I applaud that you have taken "steps" to ensure safety, but, i believe you are creating a sense of false security. Did you have the means to verify under every condition you could not have methanol vapor levels that would not be toxic nor could they accumulate above the LEL?


I hope you are not attempting to lump me in with these people you apparently despise so much. I am certified international to install, maintain and inspect electrical equipment in hazardous (explosive) atmospheres. I work on an off-shore oil rig as an electrical supervisor. I also know that though the regulations for industrial applications and gas plants are unachievable and overkill for a home application - but, the same concepts apply. The big one being, is if you cannot prove through either engineering or testing that you are safe, then, you aren't. Period.

Again, the safest way is to use a sealed processor with a relief path venting away from where you are working and in the direction of the prevailing wind, to leak test your processor, to be mindful of housekeeping and where you store supplies, and to use equipment that is properly rated, installed and electrically protected.

Dogma,

Well said. I don't think reinforcing safety is spreading FUD.

As you said, expecting the Home Brew setting to be able to reach industrial/commercial levels is both unattainable and unecessary.

There is A LOT that has been "gotten away with" that is neither safe or smart.

I was about to "go live" and begin offering a pump/heater plan and the device (for those not wanting to DIY) until one of the last discussions about safety.

I am in the process of revamping the enclosure to incorporate safer methods. I won't offer it until then.

I think a system control can be made to account for the concerns about the lack of overload and temp concerns of the HF pump.

However, @ 38 bucks.... just the price alone scared me.

As with all hobbys, the mantra of "buy the best equipment you can afford the first time" surely applies here.

I'm actually working on a full system that should compete very favorably with the biopro 150 and possibly 380 for a lower price.

quote:

Originally posted by Dogma721:
i believe you are creating a sense of false security.

I believe others are creating a false sense of danger and fear and I further believe that this is just as much of a problem as having people complacent.

quote:

Did you have the means to verify under every condition you could not have methanol vapor levels that would not be toxic nor could they accumulate above the LEL?

Of course not.
You have already stated in your qualified and bone fide expert opinion that such an undertaking would be unachievable in a home application. Asking such a question is not helpful to the discussion and contributes nothing to those that may want to do the right thing in ensuring their safety.

quote:

I hope you are not attempting to lump me in with these people you apparently despise so much. I am certified international to install, maintain and inspect electrical equipment in hazardous (explosive) atmospheres. I work on an off-shore oil rig as an electrical supervisor.

I do not recall or have looked up any of your previous postings on the matter so in effect I don't know your position well enough to have any opinion on them I will say though that if you are one of the people that preach unrealistic and over the top safety precautions for the application in which they will be used, then yes, I would lump you in with these people.

If you advise people to take precautions that are relevant, effective and suitable for the environment in which they will be used, then I commend you for not adding to the misinformation that is already out there.

quote:

I also know that though the regulations for industrial applications and gas plants are unachievable and overkill for a home application - but, the same concepts apply. The big one being, is if you cannot prove through either engineering or testing that you are safe, then, you aren't. Period.

That may be relevant to industrial applications but I do not believe it is to domestic ones. If that rule were applied to a host of domestic situations, appliances and practices, then our homes would be completely different to what they are today.
A simple example of this would be the checking of electrical appliances and leads. Her e in oxz at least, every electrical appliance and lead must be, at the very most, annually checked and meggaed. That is not the situation in a home environment. To then say that everything electrical in every home is therefore unsafe is obviously ridiculous.

You don't need to test whether an open drum of meth sitting next to an ignition source is safe or not to know it isn't just the same as you don't need to test or prove that a sealed drum of meth in a ventilated area is safe.
Logic and common sense do have an important place in the home brew environment.

I am sure you know of countless unforseen accidents that have created precedents which have taken place in many situations that were previously tested and declared safe. You can never make something 100% safe so trying to impose that standard on a non industrial situation is pointless.

quote:

Again, the safest way is to use a sealed processor with a relief path venting away from where you are working and in the direction of the prevailing wind, to leak test your processor, to be mindful of housekeeping and where you store supplies, and to use equipment that is properly rated, installed and electrically protected.

I agree.
I also maintain that rather than worrying about wether an electrical appliance is " spark proof" and could cause an explosion, I say take steps to ensute that the conditions never arise in the first place that makes that a possibility.

Surely you would agree that this is the simplest , safest and most importantly, ACHIEVABLE scenario in the home brew environment?

Don't worry about if your electrical appliances could cause a spark that would ignite fumes,Make sure there are no fumes around in the first place so there is nothing to ignite.

quote:

In order to prevent any sort of meth fume buildup, all that would be needed is a fan placed just outside the door of whatever enclosed building the meth was being used in blowing fresh, moving air into the area and a fire or explosion becomes a physical impossibility.
End of story.

DCS: for somebody accusing other members of being "ignorant cretins", you sure show in this sentence a complete ignorance of the basics of fluid dynamics, as well as a very partial knowledge of the safety issues involved in BD home production, and of real life.
First, you can put as big a fan as you want, blowing as much fresh air as you want, but that IN NO CASE guarantees you won't have pockets of methanol vapors forming in some parts of your shop.

Second, you're assuming mistakes can't happen. Have you heard of "accidents"? Do you know what a "spill" is?
What happens if you "accidentally spill" some methanol onto a spark producing device? Are you aware that methanol produces vapors even at low temperatures? Are you aware that methanol flames are almost invisible?

quote:

Worrying about the electrical appliances creating a spark is putting the cart before the horse. Forget about wether the pump makes sparks or not, go buy one that makes as many sparks as possible! You will NEVER have any trouble if you address what its really important which is to never let the meth fumes build to a dangerous level for a fire or for your own health by ensuring the area you are working in is properly ventilated preferably with an outside supply of forced fresh air.

Forget about sparks? Address what's "really important"?
Who determines what's really important? You?
What are you going to say when somebody follows your "advise", and burns their house to the ground? That their safety was less important than your "beliefs"?

quote:

That may be relevant to industrial applications but I do not believe it is to domestic ones.

Again, "you do not believe". What is this, a religion?
You do not believe that fuel being produced in a home is as flammable as if it was being produced at an industrial plant?
You do not believe houses burn as easily as factories?
You do not believe your comments are just a bit irresponsible?

quote:

Logic and common sense do have an important place in the home brew environment.

"Logic and common sense" are the 2 excuses most commonly used to justify unsafe practices. Furthermore, "logic and common sense" have caused more accidents throughout history than just about anything else you can think of.

I agree you have to draw a line somewhere, as to what's reasonable and what's overkill. As I said on another thread, adding a $100 overload protection to a $30 pump, when you can achieve similar results with a $2 fuse and a $3 thermal fuse, is like burning down a house to kill a fly. But making sure your system components don't create unnecessary hazards is not expensive, if you know how to do it, and I have found in these last months that some of the "ignorant cretins" in this forum have provided very valuable information to help others achieve that.

quote:

Originally posted by DCS:
. . .
As a bit of overkill, all pumps and other electrical devices were placed above ground level where they would be above the level of any heavier than air fumes.

A person could literally pour a gallon ( or 50 ) of meth on the floor in there and not be able to cause a fire or explosion with the electrical equipment if they tried.
. . . .

Methanol fumes are miscible in air. Both gasoline and propane fumes are heavier than air.

Installing the pumps and motors above the floor may reduce the risk of a gasoline or propane vapor explosion but will do little to prevent a methanol vapor explosion, assuming all the other conditions are right.

Even with good "upper wall" ventilation and positive air circulation/pressure in the work area I think spilling 50 gallons of methanol could still result in methanol vapor concentrations above the LEL.

No worries fellas, I don't have a clue apparently.
Why don't you guys explain how people can GAURANTEE ( as that is the standard you want to hold others to) that they will never have a fire, accident or a buildup of meth vapors in their shed or garages. Everyone would love to know this I'm sure!

It would be best if you could tell people something practical, affordable and do able other wise if it costs too much, takes time to redesign their existing workplaces or in just plain too much trouble, it will all be ignored and hell, people might just try their luck by putting a fan in the doorway and obviously you guy's couldn't have that could you?.

I spose people will need to make sure they only use sparkproof pumps. Oh, and the light and power switches will need to be spark proof as well won't they? And the light fittings will need to be those certified type as well that are rated for use in explosive environments.... I know they cost a bomb, my friend has an engineering business that supplies them to mines and the like. They are some pretty exy lampshades! Oh, and they better not have anything that could cause static in there either. Or anything like a petrol motor on a ride on lawn mower. And wouldn't something like a Halon fire suppression setup be needed as well to pass industrial standards? And fume monitors?
What else Am I missing that the average Joe bio maker will need to be guaranteed of no problems and to make sure his shed is up to industrial standards so it won't burn as easily as a factory could?

It sounds to me like what you want is some sort of exclusively built reaction shed all designed to conform to industrial standards of the most dangerous material handling facilities ever built. Nice thought for sure but I can't see a lot ( anyone) actually doing this and the in lies the problem with all this over the top safety stuff. If you make it too complicated, people won't bother doing a single thing.

The fact is a lot of people make Bio in the corners of their sheds and don't have the money, space or inclination to redesign the whole thing as an industrial facility and this is where all you high and noble safety preaching falls right down on its A$$ because at the end of the day, the greater majority of people won't be bothered with it.

Stick a fan in the doorway of the shed and reduce you chances of problems by magnitudes, I reckon a lot more people would do that than re design their sheds or workshops to the standards you would propose but for the benefit of those interested, why don't you spell out what you think is needed for a suitably safe bio making area that guarantees there will be no problems from meth vapors.

I'm certainly keen to know what you propose and I know others will be too so please enlighten us all as to what needs to be done and the overall cost.

quote:

Originally posted by DCS:
No worries fellas, I don't have a clue apparently.

DCS, don't spit your dummy out.

Earlier you said

quote:

In order to prevent any sort of meth fume buildup, all that would be needed is a fan placed just outside the door of whatever enclosed building the meth was being used in blowing fresh, moving air into the area and a fire or explosion becomes a physical impossibility.
End of story.

Can you not see the difference between that statement and the one you have made today.

quote:

Stick a fan in the doorway of the shed and reduce you chances of problems by magnitudes,

Your earlier statement is quite cearly wrong while your second statement is more reasonable.

If you go around making statemnts about it being a "physical impossibility" to have a fire or explosion you are going to get attacked for it.

However suggesting that the addition of the fan redcues the "risk by magnitudes" is a perfectly legitimate thing to say and probably true.

Well,

DCS,

I think you have the "safety nuts" wrong.

I saw a Youtube video of a guy explaining how he made bio-d . he had what appeared to be an appleseed design. it was in a very cluttered attached garage, methanol container with a powr strip sitting on top of it, romex wire and extension cords running across to the point he had to jump over them to point to the different parts of his process.

So, I'm not talking bomb proof - nonsparking static free super-duper motors and vapou proof switches with atmosphere sensing circuits.

The guy was jumping over outstretched wires and there was so much clutter that you couldn't walk a straight line.

All the controls I advocate can be had for less than $200.

Best practices cost nothing but the willingness to be safe about your actions.

I am begining to think there should be a minimum level of acceptable safety. If an individual refuses to follow that level, that is their choice.
There are inexpensive ways to make the environment safer. Putting a fan blowing fresh air into the shed may be one. Putting a $3 fuse and $20 thermostat is another.
A good question to ask youself is, Ois a little bit of inexpensive fuel worth the cost of ruining my life?"

Sorry DCS but in this playground I hardly think where you are going with this is going to wash.

Brushless pump motors are pretty much the norm. The exception being those folks that want to mix their biodiesel with a drill. In that case, ventilation alone is not enough. You have to use a lid to try to contain the fumes inside the mixing vessel as well as using ventilation. Or you can just suggest using a shaded pole motor instead. They don't make sparks and cost half as much as a cheap drill.

Making a workspace that meets industrial standards is not needed, but a fan in the door is not an excuse to be nonchalant about handling methanol either. It only takes 6% to meet the LEL.

Hello Rick

quote:

Originally posted by RickDaTech:
Or you can just suggest using a shaded pole motor instead. They don't make sparks and cost half as much as a cheap drill.

That is great news. The last cheap drill I bought cost $15.00 and is rated at 500 Watts/ 0.67 HP.
Can you provide the link to a 500 Watt/0.67 HP Shaded Pole Electric motor for $7.50