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5.9 12v, new install fuel/svo routing questions. Avoiding diesel filter
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I am right in the midst of converting my 97 Dodge Ram, I have been dragging my feet on converting it though I only have a couple weeks left before I must have it done for a trip. (and its getting cold out) I have been stalling in hopes of making the best choices.

I'm just about to the point where I am going to splice in the svo lines into the fuel system and I'm a little confused. I'm sorry if this has been posted elsewhere but I couldn't find it. I am uncertain exactly where I need to splice in to avoid running any svo through the diesel fuel/water filter/separator. I have some good diagrams (hayes manual) of the fuel system and I know what is what. But I don't see a way to splice in before the lift pump but bypass having the svo flow through the stock filter either as it comes in. Or while it is being returned.

I'm going to run a looped return system with a in-cab ball valve to un-loop for the purposes of purging.

Maybe I am not seeing something obvious but it looks like I can't keep the systems entirely apart. In my mercedes its actually pretty easy.


How do you all do it?

Thanks a bunch!


Living off-grid in upstate NY
--1982 240D (4spd) Dual Tank SVO
--1999 Jetta TDI Dual Tank SVO
--98 12v Cummins
--6hp Lister generator - Dual Tank SOV (for house electric/hotwater backup)
 
Location: Everywhere | Registered: December 03, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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So it looks like to the best of my current knowledge that I am going to be actually completely removing the existing fuel filter. First because I hate its location (and will move it down to the lower frame someplace I can actually service it at. And because I have to really hack into everything to get everything re-routed.

I have ABS on my truck and the mass of wiring looks to bet a nightmare to work around. Taking out the stock fuel filter would also serve to give me access to the lift pump.

I want to use the stock lift pump for both diesel and veg, But on the veg side i am going to use a small cheap fuel pump, ($50 solenoid type) to help with filter restriction improving range and cold weather.

Current onboard filtering setup is shaping up to be two parallel spin on, FL-1A (fram PH8A cross ref) sump oil filters as a cheap pre-filter. Then onto a 10 micron or better fuel filter. I am current set to use a Goldenrod fuel filter as they are fairly cheap and easy to find. But I am getting skeptical that I need better filtration so i am considering switching to a two filter block of 10 micron absolute catapillar style filters. The 14" tall guys also in parallel. If I wasn't going to loop I would be afraid of restriction. But looped with a booster pump sucking on it I feel pretty confident I could get good range out of it. If I can go 3,000 miles, on $30 in filters I would be pretty happy.


Living off-grid in upstate NY
--1982 240D (4spd) Dual Tank SVO
--1999 Jetta TDI Dual Tank SVO
--98 12v Cummins
--6hp Lister generator - Dual Tank SOV (for house electric/hotwater backup)
 
Location: Everywhere | Registered: December 03, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by svojoe:
But on the veg side i am going to use a small cheap fuel pump, ($50 solenoid type) to help with filter restriction improving range and cold weather.

That will make it worse, nothing comes close to the stock piston lift pump for pressure, flow and reliability. Here is how I did mine, and hundreds of people have copied it with good results:
1995 Dodge Cummins 4x4 WVO conversion, FPHE, 3 valves


YVORMV - Your veg. oil results may vary, see www.burnveg.com/forum
95 Dodge Cummins 4x4
Zero fossil house- 100% solar power and heat.
 
Location: N. Colorado | Registered: August 31, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I think I have referenced your how-to for 2 years now its great! I'm going to do a few things a little different. I'm going to run looped return by default on both sides. After so much experience with it on my Mercedes I'm convinced in its benefits. Restriction seems to be a huge concern on these trucks. I've seen some funky attempts to circumvent it. It seems like a good idea to take the 60-70 gph the truck pumps stock through the IP, (vs the 15 or so gph, of a mercedes) and turn it into 3-4gph by looping it back. Of course air purging becomes the big concern but as I mentioned I'm going to be running the system pressurized from my veggie filters on-wards. I actually wish I had time to implement the 'newest' thing that excites me. A lightly pressurized veggie tank... but I just don't have time to build it. I will be able to purge to the veggie tank only manually with a ball valve in the cab. I don't want to risk contaminating the diesel tank so I'm not going to send any fuel back that direction. This may cost me a few dollars more diesel a month but Its saved me a lot of headache in my cars.


I didn't mean to imply I'm going to skip the stock lift pump for the veggie. I do hear its exceptionally strong and tough at pumping grease. I'm just going to be feeding it the 3-4 gph its going to want under pressure form the electric pump on the veggie side. When the restriction of the filters exceeds the suction of the electric pump and I start running a light vacuum on the veggie side will be my indication to plan on changing the filters very soon.

I'm also going to use Injection line heaters mostly for the 'feel good' aspect of the heat boost. On a benz if it is 20F outside and you are not using a air-damn (grill cover) even with a good heat exchanger and hose insulation the back end of the injectors is 90F, I can only hope that the motor is heating that up a bit before injection. I discovered that with the air damn and a insulation shroud over all the injector lines puts you into the 130f range. So I'm just after the comfort in knowing I'm trying to keep the temps hot.

Are you still using the Cim-Tek filters? I'm in the midst of re-considering my whole filtering setup because I discovered that the sump spin ons I have used for years are not longer as good as they used to be. So I'm thinking about switching to a parallel housing that accepts two of your cim-tek sized filters only about 12" long spec'd for cummins to give 10micron absolute.


what do you think? It seems to be pretty radically different than all the other cummins conversions I've seen. I think my billions of miles behind the benz-o's is influencing me here but I can't help but think what helps them is going to help me here.


Living off-grid in upstate NY
--1982 240D (4spd) Dual Tank SVO
--1999 Jetta TDI Dual Tank SVO
--98 12v Cummins
--6hp Lister generator - Dual Tank SOV (for house electric/hotwater backup)
 
Location: Everywhere | Registered: December 03, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by svojoe:
Are you still using the Cim-Tek filters?

Yes.
quote:
what do you think?

2 bad ideas. A weak lift pump in series will simply limit the flow/pressure of the strong one. Looped on diesel will trap air. When on diesel is the easy time to get any air returned to tank. Which is essential if you are trying to start it and there is an air bubble.

Moving the existing diesel filter isn't much benefit since I run >90% of time on VO, I have never had to change mine in 5 years. It could be 10 years before I need to, and changing it once even with its bad location is easier than the work of moving it.


YVORMV - Your veg. oil results may vary, see www.burnveg.com/forum
95 Dodge Cummins 4x4
Zero fossil house- 100% solar power and heat.
 
Location: N. Colorado | Registered: August 31, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Well we shall see, Its hard to explain without a diagram so its easy to mis-understand. I think that until the filters are totally clogged the electric pump will easily keep up with the demand since its pushing such a small amount veggy. When it gets overwhelmed I think it will actually add a modicum of help to the stock pump if I want to push it that hard. This is how it works in my benz's and I can't see how it will be much different here despite 4gph vs 2.5gph and I will have 2-4x the filter capacity. But I could be wrong. I have not had much problem with air in the system so I'm really unconcerned with it. Unless I run *really* low on diesel, when I've done that in my mercs I've just pressurized the veggie system and switched over and it seems to push the air out. here though actually will be able to loop back to the veggie tank for purging after filter changes.

This might sound crazy but in my benz I screw on my veggie filters dry/empty. With the car running on diesel to keep the veg hot I just run on the elec pump to suck the air out of the filters. watch a clear line until the bubbles stop. Switch the valve, switch to veggie and go. I'm hoping I can do that here.

Send me a PM, if I make it I'm going to be in your neck of the woods I think. And infact one of my contacts in denver has not returned my phone calls and I'm getting nervous I had planned on getting 100gallons from him on the way. I might be in a pickle when I'm coming through CO since I have not been planing on carrying that much fuel... I'd love to meet if at all possible.

Whatever it takes to seal the deal, a six pack some filters.... whatever Smile


Living off-grid in upstate NY
--1982 240D (4spd) Dual Tank SVO
--1999 Jetta TDI Dual Tank SVO
--98 12v Cummins
--6hp Lister generator - Dual Tank SOV (for house electric/hotwater backup)
 
Location: Everywhere | Registered: December 03, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post



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Another question.


I don't know how the stock fuel filter is really designed. I had planned on putting in a small 40 micron mesh steel final filter just before the IP as a 'feel' good measure. Its going to take considerable time for me to re-route the stock diesel filter pre-lift pump so that it does not have veggie circulating through it when I am switched to veg.

Considering this long trip I am preparing for I won't have to shut down very often and I don't mind LONG purge times. (IE, 10+ minutes on diesel) Can I just introduce the veg pre-lift pump and keep the stock system completely the same and re-route it when I have time later?

Provided the veg is sub 10 micron filtered is there any chance its going to mess with the stock fuel filter/water separator?

Taking this short-cut could really simplify and de-stress my next two weeks if it will work without any severe complications.


Also, my truck is a 97, and the fuel filter system seems to be much different than earlier models. It is a large black filter/separator with a bleeding valve. I think that this may make some of what I am asking confusing if you have the other filter setup which I think is a white spin-on filter. That filter is much smaller and doesn't really cover the lift-pump.


Living off-grid in upstate NY
--1982 240D (4spd) Dual Tank SVO
--1999 Jetta TDI Dual Tank SVO
--98 12v Cummins
--6hp Lister generator - Dual Tank SOV (for house electric/hotwater backup)
 
Location: Everywhere | Registered: December 03, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Unless I am mistaken again there IS a paper filter inside that housing on my truck. It would definitely not hold up to much grease. So I think i'm kind of answering my own question at this point. Sure I could do it. But I would be changing that filter on the road, possibly often :/


Living off-grid in upstate NY
--1982 240D (4spd) Dual Tank SVO
--1999 Jetta TDI Dual Tank SVO
--98 12v Cummins
--6hp Lister generator - Dual Tank SOV (for house electric/hotwater backup)
 
Location: Everywhere | Registered: December 03, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Without a diagram I have no idea what you are planning. Don't share the stock filter. It doesn't need to be moved pre-lift pump. The 97 setup isn't any different than my 95, color doesn't matter.


YVORMV - Your veg. oil results may vary, see www.burnveg.com/forum
95 Dodge Cummins 4x4
Zero fossil house- 100% solar power and heat.
 
Location: N. Colorado | Registered: August 31, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I had to re-route it because otherwise it would be shared with the veg oil in the stock setup. I actually think my truck is a 97.5 model year?


The stock configuration went like this:
Diesel tank --> pre-filter/fuel heater ---> lift pump (pressurised)--> fuel/water filter --> injection pump --> tank return

Now the diesel side goes:
Diesel tank --> fuel water/filter --> [Veg Switch] --> pre-filter/fuel heater --> lift pump --> injection pump --> Return to Veg line via 3-way valve or to veg tank for air bleeding

The veg oil side:

Veg tank heated pickup --> Veg filters --> 7psi booster pump --> [Veg Switch] --> pre-filter/fuel heater --> lift pump --> Injection pump --> Return to Veg line via 3-way valve or to veg tank for air bleeding

Thats the best I can do on short notice! the pre-filter/heater is nearly attached to the lift pump and I didn't want to remove it altogether for the diesel cold starts.


Living off-grid in upstate NY
--1982 240D (4spd) Dual Tank SVO
--1999 Jetta TDI Dual Tank SVO
--98 12v Cummins
--6hp Lister generator - Dual Tank SOV (for house electric/hotwater backup)
 
Location: Everywhere | Registered: December 03, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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3 bad ideas. A weak lift pump in series will simply limit the flow/pressure of the strong one. Looped on diesel will trap air which is by far the most common problem. The filters under vacuum have more problems with air leaks and will clog faster than if you keep them on the pressure side. Be careful, some filters aren't designed for vacuum and the paper will collapse inside and you won't know it unless you cut them open.


YVORMV - Your veg. oil results may vary, see www.burnveg.com/forum
95 Dodge Cummins 4x4
Zero fossil house- 100% solar power and heat.
 
Location: N. Colorado | Registered: August 31, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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So where does your veg switch tie in? It sounds like you are pushing veg through your stock diesel filter? Even unlooped That must take over a gallon of fuel to purge right? I'm guessing that stock filter housing holds at least 14oz's just by itself and because of its design its likely to have veg stick around since the input and output are on the top. Even after a gallon of clean diesel through there its probably still 50/50.

Maybe this isn't how you do it, I just couldn't figure out a way around it so I've already re-routed it on mine and I will try that. After inspecting the filter I'm guessing its a 20ish (maybe 25) micron paper filter with enough pleats to handle a bit of vacuum.

I'm just always facinated about all the different ways you can do this!


Living off-grid in upstate NY
--1982 240D (4spd) Dual Tank SVO
--1999 Jetta TDI Dual Tank SVO
--98 12v Cummins
--6hp Lister generator - Dual Tank SOV (for house electric/hotwater backup)
 
Location: Everywhere | Registered: December 03, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post



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See my thread I linked above for the full diagram and description. Purge is <1 minute, I don't share a filter so filter ozs isn't relevant.


YVORMV - Your veg. oil results may vary, see www.burnveg.com/forum
95 Dodge Cummins 4x4
Zero fossil house- 100% solar power and heat.
 
Location: N. Colorado | Registered: August 31, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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joe, no offense but i think your proposed alterations are adding complexity and cost rather than benefit. the 94+ 12v fuel systems are all the same. SW setup purges in seconds rather than minutes because all that needs to be cleared out are the shared sections of fuel line. the heated filter and exchanger dont need to be purged of veggie. it can gel then re-melt upon the next warmup, as long as the diesel path is clear. take gelled veggie serious. 5 seconds on the wrong switch and youve got trouble.



set your valves up like this




i made a detailed install thread of my sunwizard system copy here, to help others see exactly what they are going to be working with.
http://www.burnveg.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=874
 
Registered: August 31, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I don't know how cold it gets in "everywhere" but if you use good oil it shouldn't gel up above 30 F degrees. I think your making your system way to complicated. I added a tank, 40 plate FPHE, and a 6 port valve to my 96. That's it. However I am running a blend in my veggie tank. It was still liquid at 20 F degrees last week. I also ran a similar set up on my GMC for 4 years.


96 Ram 2500 2WD running 90/10 WVO/RUG, 2 tank system, 10 plate FPHE
99 VW Beetle 5 speed, single tank B100
82 GMC P/U 6.2 running 85/15 WVO/RUG (Sold)
 
Location: Central Alabama | Registered: June 06, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
if you use good oil it shouldn't gel up above 30 F degrees

The clear oil probably won't gel, however the PHO and fats in the UVO will separate out below 50°F and clog filters and screens.



 
Location: coldest N.America | Registered: May 03, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Yep, I agree, three valve as described here the way to go on all LP equipped vehicles! Forget about electric pumps on these, you can spend huge money and still not perform as well as stock mechanical LP. On my 92 Dodge, I'm using a 4BT Low psi piston type LP (like 2nd gen but correct PSI, available from Oregon diesel injection fro like 80 bucks) I get 5-11 PSI no matter what, stock diaphragm pumps only do like 0-3psi to the IP after valves and stuff. Been ages since i have been here, and I thought i was the only one 3 valving like this!

Listen to SunWizard, it works great. One thing i do not see listed is pre filters (MBZ screen type work fine) pre LP inlet valve, so that you do not get crap in the valve from tanks. Maybe it was mentioned but I did not read the entire thread.

Also, I'd recommend using plug type valves which seal 100% as opposed to cartridge type valves. Greasecar has a larger plug type valve available which works great and don't cost much.

The VE pumps are fine, its running low (or no) fuel psi that will harm them, a fuel PSI gauge at inlet of IP is a must.

As for cold weather, I am using a sandwich type VW oil cooler heated filter set up and a webb 424 prefilter, LOL to hot fox in tank. No problem in VT winters, 140-160F on highway. I like FPHE's, but i had this webb kickin around so I used it.

Best of luck, these things are great grease rigs.

Heres a pic of my 92:

This message has been edited. Last edited by: The Gilead Garage,


MB300TD
92 w250 CTD
Samurai 1.6VWTD
Mitsu 4x4 17HP tractor
Veggen
WVO shop heat
 
Location: Randolph, VT | Registered: October 30, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Oops, I thought you had a first gen. LP stuff i did with mine obviously does not apply to you since you already have the piston type.


MB300TD
92 w250 CTD
Samurai 1.6VWTD
Mitsu 4x4 17HP tractor
Veggen
WVO shop heat
 
Location: Randolph, VT | Registered: October 30, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post



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quote:
Originally posted by The Gilead Garage:
Yep, I agree, three valve as described here the way to go on all LP equipped vehicles! Forget about electric pumps on these, you can spend huge money and still not perform as well as stock mechanical LP. On my 92 Dodge, I'm using a 4BT Low psi piston type LP (like 2nd gen but correct PSI, available from Oregon diesel injection fro like 80 bucks) I get 5-11 PSI no matter what, stock diaphragm pumps only do like 0-3psi to the IP after valves and stuff. Been ages since i have been here, and I thought i was the only one 3 valving like this!

Listen to SunWizard, it works great. One thing i do not see listed is pre filters (MBZ screen type work fine) pre LP inlet valve, so that you do not get crap in the valve from tanks. Maybe it was mentioned but I did not read the entire thread.

Also, I'd recommend using plug type valves which seal 100% as opposed to cartridge type valves. Greasecar has a larger plug type valve available which works great and don't cost much.

The VE pumps are fine, its running low (or no) fuel psi that will harm them, a fuel PSI gauge at inlet of IP is a must.

As for cold weather, I am using a sandwich type VW oil cooler heated filter set up and a webb 424 prefilter, LOL to hot fox in tank. No problem in VT winters, 140-160F on highway. I like FPHE's, but i had this webb kickin around so I used it.

Best of luck, these things are great grease rigs.

Heres a pic of my 92:



I'm three valving on my 91 and the system works great. However, I'm having symptoms of a failing lift pump and am wondering what to replace it with. I'm curious about this 4BT piston type LP. What gives?


98 Jetta TDI with aluminim tank HotFox fuel pickup, HOH, FPHE, Coolant Heated VW Oil Cooler Filter,VegTherm, Injector Line Heaters, 6 port Pollak, and 3 port Pollak for Backflushing veg. filter
100,000 grease miles
B100 - B20 Main Tank Fuel depending on outdoor temps. SOLD

81 Benz 240D 3 Gallon purge fuel tank, Heated Pickup Stock Tank, 12V pump, HOH, Coolant Heated Filter, 16 Plate FPHE, Injector Line Heaters, 2 Greasecar Valves, Looped on Veg., Return to tank diesel.and Injector overflow return to veg. tank

91 Dodge Cummins

2010 VW TDI Sportwagon
 
Location: Vergennes, VT USA | Registered: May 16, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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