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A Idea to preserve glaciers
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Ok, alot of people believe that if glacial lakes.....

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Netxisowteno,
 
Registered: February 18, 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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why is it not possible for us to freeze water on a massive scale?


It violates physics. The heat removed from the water to freeze it has to be transferred somewhere, so you aren't removing any heat (doing any cooling globally) by freezing the water, just moving the heat. And since no technique of heat transfer can be 100% efficient, you are actually generating MORE heat by trying to freeze the water in those glacial lakes.

This would be the same thing you would see on a smaller scale if you tried to cool your house (or even just one room) with your refrigerator. Since the cooling coils on the back of the fridge dump the heat they remove right back into the same room you are trying to cool by leaving the fridge door open, and because they have to release more heat than they remove from inside the fridge to do that, since it can not be 100% efficient, you would WARM your house by trying to cool it with the refrigerator.

NOW, if you were to think on a COSMIC scale, and could somehow transfer the heat to something OFF the planet, it would work. But no technique has even been conceived to use space as a heat sink.
 
Location: Southern WI, USA | Registered: May 18, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I suppose it depends on what lakes you are talking about/where.

If the weather is almost cold enough to refreeze the lakes... you could potentially push it past the tipping point with a milar/foil mirror. designed to tip off snow/ice/rain, but reflect sunlight back into space.

Or...
Put your solar panel array above the lake so you can recover electricity, while the lake gets shade. Smile Most solar panels are fairly low efficiency, so if they are dark, it might be a little counterproductive Frown

Ditto on problem of refrigeration. You need to take away energy, rather than add it, unless you wished to build a solar freezer, but you would still need to absorb solar energy to do so when you'd be better off reflecting it.

What about circulating antifreeze through a heat exchanger on cold nights?

If CO2 is truly a problem. Then, if we stopped burning fossil fuels, the oceans would absorb most of the excess CO2, and the problem would go away. But, to do so would mean some major global changes.

Just 30-40 years ago, many climatologists were predicting the coming of the next ice age. Now we have twice as many climatologists, and they're all certain that we're going to roast in Hades.

30 years from now... what will they be predicting with absolute certainty? Talk about job security, the climate changes, and they still can still justify looking into their crystal balls.

In the future, we'll likely start trying to manage both our climate and our weather. But, if we choose to do that, we will make some big blunders.

Personally, I think I would evaluate trying to hinder (but not stop) the movement of ice into the Fram Strait between Greenland and Svalbard, but while that might help stabilize the Arctic, it could be catastrophic for the Greenland Glaciers.

Blocking the Bering Strait might have the same effect, but could have unpredictable results including warming the Atlantic which could have serious consequences.

But, before investing too much in climate modification, we need to see how the climate responds to what appears like it will be a weak solar cycle over the next decade. Heck, any scientist knows not to change 2 variables at a time. Just think, you could build your multi-billion dollar ice rescue program, only to discover that the reason it was successful was because of waning solar cycles. Or, once you got it built, you might realize that you have too much ice instead.
 
Location: Oregon | Registered: October 17, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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This is not a new idea. Let's just start a nuclear war with Russia; the dust will block the sun and cool the planet.

As John Hodgeman would say "disaster: AVERTED"
 
Location: Colorado | Registered: March 20, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Originally posted by Netxisowteno:
Ok, alot of people believe that if glacial lakes..... say on the artic or antarctic, were to suddenly drain into the oceans we would head into the next ice age right?...

... and a lot of people believe the sun spins around the earth. Does that make it true?
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/41...and_science-science/



 
Location: coldest N.America | Registered: May 03, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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well I was mainly thinking about the bodies of fresh water that sit atop the artic and antarctic glacies since they are almost at freezing I was thinking of a rather simple solution , for example when you put a bottle of water in the freezer and take it out befor it is frozen and shake it up and or take off the lid what happens instantly the entire bottle forms into ice crystals with lil to any effort nor energy put out what soo ever, this is just one example on how we can freeze water that is close to it's freezing point with lil to no effort, I am no genius and I am sure that with so mny people in the world a solution can be resolved on a bigger scale.

As for the comment about this not being a new idea sorry but nuclear war vrs refreezing vast bodies of water are completely different ideas not and would result in a completely differt way, freezing the water atop the glaciers would just ensure to protect the world and all costal cities from one day later rather than sooner from being flooded as well as save millions of lives globally and ecological disater. It's rather like comparing orangers to submarines and ur comment is not constructive critism therefor you should remove it from the thread all together.
 
Registered: February 18, 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post



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Also by freezing the water instead of that massive body of water absorbing the suns heat! In a ice state it would be reflecting the sun rays back in to space thus helping to fight agianst global warming and the melting of the glaciers all together. And very likely preventing cotal cities from being flooded and saving millions of lives and protecting the enviroment in the long run.
 
Registered: February 18, 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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The Antarctic Lakes are 2km beneath the surface.

They are likely caused by a combination of an immense pressure of the ice sitting on top of them, and geothermal heating from Earth's core.

I got stuck with the calculations... but changes in the surface temperature today will likely take a century or so to propagate down to those lakes.

Of course, there are parts of West Antarctica that are below sea level. I have yet to figure out the actual difference between the mass of the grounded portion of the West Antarctic Ice Sheets and their water displacement.

One of the concerns in Antarctica is whether our activities are affecting the Ice Shelves which are extensions of the glaciers into the oceans. And, if by affecting the ice shelves, it will also affect the glaciers attached to them. The Wilkin's Ice Shelf is in the process of collapsing this Antarctic Summer. However, it is also in the part of Antarctica that is showing the greatest growth of ice. For an ice shelf to be stable, the mass of the shelf must equal the water displacement. If not, it could potentially create sheer forces. Some of the Antarctic Glaciers appear to be thinning, or otherwise loosing mass, presumably from greater flow into the oceans than new snow is being deposited.

Greenland apparently does have places where there are ice-melt lakes on top of the glaciers, although some have spontaneously drained.

I'm not sure of the true dynamics of those lakes.

It takes about ½ calorie to raise 1gm ice 1°C
It takes 80 calories to melt 1gm ice (or removing the equivalent amount to refreeze it).
And it takes about 1 calorie to raise the temperature of the water 1°C.

Having lakes on top of the glaciers may absorb slightly more sunlight, but otherwise they are probably pretty stable up there. Perhaps one should siphon them into the ocean if they seem to be a problem.

Or... Bottle them up and sell them as pure Greenland Glacier Water Smile
 
Location: Oregon | Registered: October 17, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Greenland apparently does have places where there are ice-melt lakes on top of the glaciers, although some have spontaneously drained.

I'm not sure of the true dynamics of those lakes.

A glacier is a dynamic system. Lakes form seasonally on the surface during the long summer days and the lakes absorb more energy than the surrounding ice. The lakes don't last long because they periodically drain to the water layer bottom of the glacier through cracks and crevasse.



 
Location: coldest N.America | Registered: May 03, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Well I was wondering could not a shiled be devised in space t o absorb the suns rays while they are directed towards towards the glaciers this way they are not melting away persay and gives good old mother nature the time it needs to fight off the global warming effect as well the shields could be storing the suns power enough to maintain it's orbit as well as store power for lets say future space stations that are eventually going to be just above our planet anyways. these shields could also be used else where around the world persay lets says india is expecting really hot whether like soo hot people are going to be dying from it but with shields blocking out the suns rays on these forcated extreamly hot days this would also prevent loss of life and would ultimately slow down the global warming process.

Or am I just dreaming?

But thanks for hte information I have had a few people tell me about the lakes forming within the glaciers that I had no idea about to be truthful, though what worries me the most is the fact that they are literally melting away due to global warming and my main concern anyways is to prevent this from happening.
 
Registered: February 18, 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Space shields will be an option... sometime.

They will likely have to be immense. Think of building something the size of Texas in space (or a thousand Rhode Islands).

The temptation, of course, would be to point them towards the Arctic to warm the Arctic Smile
Or... globally cool in the summer and warm in the winter.

If you built a solar panel the size of Texas, you would have a lot of power to store. Some ideas were to beam the energy to Earth as a "renewable resource".

We currently don't have the technology to make "matter (or antimatter)" out of huge amounts of energy, although one might be able to capture some cosmic protons. Making matter would be inefficient. Making antimatter would be a good method to store energy, assuming we could devise a method to manufacture it and store it in bulk in space.

At one time the International Space Station was venting excess hydrogen into space. At the same time, one of the space telescopes is being shut down because it is using hydrogen as a cryo-fluid, and is running out of it (so much for building a simple refrigerator/compressor and recycling).
 
Location: Oregon | Registered: October 17, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Originally posted by Netxisowteno:

Or am I just dreaming?



I certainly thnk so!

Have you ever actually seen a glacier?
Do you really have any idea how these Eco systems work?
They melt and re- freeze as part of their cycle and trying to interfere with that would without a doubt cause more harm and damage to delicate eco systems that what they saved.

Your trying to patch the problem but not fix it. Instead of worrying about the band aid, go to the source of whats causing the injury in the first place and put an end to that. You'll find that is something man kind can manage ( if it wants) and is in pieces small enough to manage.

Trying to re-freeze a glacier is not a workable or practical idea in any way.
 
Registered: July 30, 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post



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I tried to search for this, but didn't come up with anything.It woul be nice if you provide some more information about glaciers.
 
Location: 9832 YOAKUM DR Los Angeles, CA | Registered: October 27, 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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