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How Biofuels will help destroy the planet: debate me
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That's the 2nd option I stated.
quote:
it actually was created billions of years ago

Get close with Occam's Razor
quote:
one should not increase, beyond what is necessary, the number of entities required to explain anything.



 
Location: coldest N.America | Registered: May 03, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Indeed. Abrahamic religions are not the only god or the oldest belief system. Paganism predates all other religions that I am aware of as it was based on simple observation by country dwellers (no other sort of dwellers back then) that life came from the Earth and was brought forth by the light from our Star often called the Sun, ocasionally known as Sol but known by many names through the ages.

The only religion to have it's basic beliefs confirmed by science.

If plants are sentient in any way they would have made the same observation from thier own perspective before humans or even animals existed. They would know intimately that they come from the earth they are rooted in and absorb steller energy from our local star to power thier life processes. It is an inescapable self evident truth to any sentience that lives outside in the natural world.


mathematical elegance -- desired result achieved with minimal complication
 
Location: Manchester UK | Registered: June 03, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Occam's Razor


I can reduce your entities for you.

The universe is the physical form of a metaphysical entity involved in a continous process of self experimentaion, creation and growth.

See, no external metaphysical entity required.

Of course there is the "what started it all" question going begging but that would apply to any other metaphysical entity you postulate as well.


mathematical elegance -- desired result achieved with minimal complication
 
Location: Manchester UK | Registered: June 03, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Originally posted by Biofuelsimon:
You could try looking at the half life of radioactive elements in very old rocks. That would give you some idea.

Any of these things such as carbon dating etc. are only theories. Such as the "theory of Evolution" If the dinosaurs evolved from lower forms of life how come no one has ever traced a particular species from start to finish? And if these animals evolved certain adaptations to survive how did they live thru the adaptation periods. They find Dino bones and fossils in earth and rocks wouldn't you expect they got buried by a catostrofic event? Seems to me if you leave a dead animal out in the open it will rot in weeks and eventually even the bones will be gone, that being the case If the dino's just died off there remains would have rotted away, the fact that we find fossils would point to some sort of burial shortly after death. As hard as Scientist have tried they can't find the "missing link" maybe it is because there isn't one! We know from composting that decomposition can take place in a short amount of time,if petro oil is from decayed plant life why would you think it took millions of years to happen?
 
Location: new england | Registered: July 08, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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The chemistry behind the physical changes that happen when you add methanol to veg oil and make biodiesel is only theoretical. No one has ever watched the molecules in the liquids dancing about and changing, but I guess that doesn't stop the process. It could be the influecen of the stars or it could be Chemistry. Which is the more likely explanation? And why is that explanation going to be wrong?
 
Location: London | Registered: October 27, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Any of these things such as carbon dating etc. are only theories.


Nahh, pretty well established physics mate. Radioactive decay is easy to watch and measure. A known fact. Dream on.


mathematical elegance -- desired result achieved with minimal complication
 
Location: Manchester UK | Registered: June 03, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post



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how come no one has ever traced a particular species from start to finish


I see you make the common mistake of assuming that if you don't know a thing then it hasn't happened. You need to talk to the people that do this for a living instead of your mates who don't belive or want to belive what the professionals do.


mathematical elegance -- desired result achieved with minimal complication
 
Location: Manchester UK | Registered: June 03, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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the fact that we find fossils would point to some sort of burial shortly after death.


Yes that is why we don't find all that many compared to the zillions of dinasuars who lived and died. Takes just the right accident after death to preserve it all as a fossil. Nothing unusal in that given the huge numbers involved. Bound to be a few that end up getting buried by something falling on them for one reason or another. Don't forget the Earth was a lot more active back then.


mathematical elegance -- desired result achieved with minimal complication
 
Location: Manchester UK | Registered: June 03, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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As hard as Scientist have tried they can't find the "missing link" maybe it is because there isn't one!


Actually last time I looked there were several candidates. Again you have to look at the actual work not what your mates say about the work.


mathematical elegance -- desired result achieved with minimal complication
 
Location: Manchester UK | Registered: June 03, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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We know from composting that decomposition can take place in a short amount of time,if petro oil is from decayed plant life why would you think it took millions of years to happen?


LOL you really need to study if you want to have a formed opinion. Oil is from decayed plant life and diatoms but it is hardly compost is it?

Ever found your compost turning to oil? No you havn't. No one has. Because forming oil is rather more complex and time consuming than that.

Just google and read instead of asking silly questions expecting others to spoon feed you the answers you are only going to want to disbelieve anyway.


mathematical elegance -- desired result achieved with minimal complication
 
Location: Manchester UK | Registered: June 03, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I never implied that the petro oil was a direct result of composting!I was using it as a reference"MATE" composting is a very simple form of decay(duh.And I wasn't aking silly questions I was just taking part in the debate!If you want to make it hostile by attacking me then you can kiss my backside MATE.You don't have to spoon feed me anything!If you feel you have to take the "know it all" stance you can have the floor I'm all done here BYE!
 
Location: new england | Registered: July 08, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Awww don't be so sensitive. I'm sorry I hurt your feelings. I was a bit harsh calling your questions silly. I've just been having a few confrontational debates lately and it sounded as though you were trying to argue that becuase composting is fast then oil formation must be faster than the 5 to 180 million years we know it to be from.

The general thrust of your questions, collectively, sounded like a poorly informed creationist perspective but even if they were I should try and stick to simple answers as you have done nothing wrong, nor tried my patience personally.

I actually believe in a kind of creation just not the "it all happened the way the bible says" version. Like many human works the bible is a mixture of truth, miscommunicated truth, misunderstood truth, temporal/cultural bias and myth. The writers were only human and as fallible and limited as we are today. It is ironic that the original judasim is now a tiny fragment of the christian and islamic religions it spawned.

Anyway you never even said you were a creationist so it's not strictly relevant and I'll shut up now.

So to answer your question oil is formed from plant material and diatoms that sank to bottom of a body of water and were buried so that they did not decompose in the way compost does but instead slowly changed in the oxygen free environment to the complex soup of carbon compounds we call crude oil.

We know how long it takes to form oil partly from the the chemistry involved in that change and partly from the geological layers we find the oil in.

There are certain biolgical markers in the oil that can give us clues as well. The relative amount of an organic compound, oleanane, in the oil. Oleanane is highly associated with the angiosperms, flowering plants that have evolved and spread since the early Cretaceous. Many flowering plants produce derivatives of oleanane, called oleanoids, that are toxic to predators.

Because angiosperms become more plentiful as time progresses, younger organic deposits that are converted into oil are likely to contain more angiosperms. Because the geological processes involved convert the oleanoids in the angiosperms into oleanane, the more oleanane found in a given oil sample, the more recent it is likely to be.

The method is not a very precise yardstick. Oils of any age can lack oleanane if flowering plants were not part of the material from which it formed. But lack of oleanane is a significant clue that the oil may have formed in the Jurassic or older times, before angiosperms evolved. If the compound is present in relatively small amounts, the crude is almost certainly Cretaceous or younger. If it contains large amounts of the organic substance, on the other hand, its pedigree most likely dates from the post-Cretaceous or Tertiary Age (65 million to 5 million years ago).


dating oil


mathematical elegance -- desired result achieved with minimal complication
 
Location: Manchester UK | Registered: June 03, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post



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well if your apologie is sincere then of course I accept and likewise I apologies for my remarks. However I am curious of your opinion on a creationist and I also am curious on how you tied my comments into the biblical forum, you seem to be somewhat informed in that area.
Also as a side note I am not confrontational, in my opinion a debate can be a friendly exchange of peoples perspective (I respect your opinion you respect mine)There is to much hate in this world, we are all on this forum because we all have a common intrest I really don't think we should fight among ourselves, frankly I prefer to make freinds not enemy's. I can tell by your comments that you have done your homework however I feel I have done mine, and If you wish to continue a friendly debate I'm game if not no harm no foul. Peace?
 
Location: new england | Registered: July 08, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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well if your apologie is sincere then of course I accept and likewise I apologies for my remarks. However I am curious of your opinion on a creationist and I also am curious on how you tied my comments into the biblical forum, you seem to be somewhat informed in that area


It was sincere and Peace it is.

It was easy to intuit creationism as your general thrust because it was the common unspoken thread that linked questions that challenged known science from a particular bias. You sill haven't said I am right though; your interest suggests I am but I can't be sure.

My opinion is that the universe started billions of years ago and the evolution of the universe is a process of creation that is still ongoing. Not only an unfinished work but a work whose final outcome is not yet decided. No predestination as it depends how the ongoing interactive process works out. I believe that the universe is the physical form of a metaphysical entity vast beyond our true comprehension. That physical form includes us and everything else in existence. It is growing and changing, not a finished thing. There are various loci of self awareness at different levels of existence between us and the universe. They are probably the rule rather than the exception if everything is ultimately made from what you might, from your perspective, call soul. Religions and other belief systems are small local examples. Once enough people belive then the belief system takes on a life of it's own. You can feel that life and be reassured that your belief is true. Which it is, as a subset of a greater perspective.

Earth is just a small, relatively recent, development in the growth of the Universe. Sadly for our collective ego we are not actually that special from a universal perspective. At least we are fortunate not to have developed somewhere in galactic or universal centre which might have encouraged us to continue believing everything revolves around us. We are a local star of the stage though, at least for a brief time so far.

As a baby thinks it is the centre of existence and the world revolves around it's needs so we tend to fall into the same ego trap again and again. Perhaps because on some level we are made from the stuff of the universe which, perhaps, actually is the centre of all things, a small spark which dimly feels something of the magnitude of the fire it comes from.

We thought the Sun revolved around the Earth. Racists the world over think their race is more human than other races. Many humans feel more important than other life forms on Earth. We are egocentric as a species. Naturally when we were aware of a spiritual dimension to reality we invented god's that made us the centre of creation. Cleary we are not.

Judaism is the root of all the forms of Christian and Islamic religions; they are essential different versions of the same religion. Odd that they are the ones fighting with each other and threatening the safety of us all. Judaism believes only Jews are the chosen people of god above all other races. Gentiles just don't go to heaven. It's all the same mistake again and again. Self importance. Arrogance. Egocentric perspectives. I hasten to add that is not intended to be anti-Semitic in any way. I talk not of Jew's as a race or as individuals but purely of the mechanics of their religious belief system and our common human failings, shared by all races.

We are part of a small blue planet revolving around an average yellow star near the edge of Orion, a minor branch to Perseus, one of the two main spiral arms of a 10 billion year old galaxy we call the Milky Way containing around 200 billion similar stars. In the four billion years since our star was formed it has circled Galactic centre 16 times.

I really can't put it all down in words without the process of selection and description distorting what I really see. Reducing it to a tiny perspective of something vast. Inevitably using analogy and trying to describe a big complex thing in words will mean that whilst there is an aspect of truth to what I say the analogies won't stretch too far because they are not exact fits or literal truths. But I'll try and paint one picture or aspect of things as best I can and hope you will make allowance for the poor facsimile of reality my words are.

The entire attention of the Universe, our Galaxy, Perseus or even Orion is unlikely to be focused on us. Anymore than I think about some cluster of quarks somewhere in an atom in a molecule that forms part of a cell somewhere in my liver. The only part of creation near enough to care for us is the Solar System. That is in effect our immediate family in the scheme of things. We are born of the Earth and made from the stuff of the Earth. That birth and our lives are created and maintained by the energy of the Sun. Our mother and father in essence.

Perhaps if stars chat to each other they like to boast about their local life. Proud parents always think their kids are the best on the block. News or our existence is unlikely to go much further than the neighbours on the block. Orion or some small part of it perhaps. Conversely there may be loci that embraces all the biological life in existance. We may collectively be something useful even if our individual planetfuls of life come and go.

Our creation and life on Earth is an ongoing project. Evolution is just a tool to quickly (from a life on Earth time frame) explore many possibilities. An experimental aid to decision making. Our part of reality flexing and exercising to see what it can be. What biological life is capable of being. We are one exploration that has been going on for a short time now. We are a natural progression from dinosaurs who were the main show for a long long time. They were an exploration of muscle and bone; the kinetic world of flesh and force. We are an exploration of dreams, thought and imagination; the creative/scientific world. Life on Earth is a continuous entity that has learned and grown through many forms from the most simple to our current biosphere. I doubt we are the end result. We are very limited still. Perhaps a more evolved human will be the end result, perhaps another species will take it's turn centre stage, perhaps there will never be an end result just continuous growth and development until our star increases in luminosity to the point that water on Earth is boiled away and takes life on Earth with it. Perhaps life will learn to deflect/convert the energy or migrate further out into the Solar System in the billion years before that happens. In 5 billion years Earth itself is likely to be swallowed or stripped dry of water and air by the expansion of our star.

To change the life cycle of our star or to survive it's changes could be considered sensible long term goals of Life on Earth, with or without us. We have between one and five billion years to do that. Enjoing the ride is essential though. Or what's the point.


mathematical elegance -- desired result achieved with minimal complication
 
Location: Manchester UK | Registered: June 03, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Ok I agree with some of your statements,but not all.I don't imply that I am right or you are wrong, however I respect your opinion. You may think I am foolish to have a creationist perspective, so let's just say we agree that we disagree. Rock on.......................
 
Location: new england | Registered: July 08, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I think we can agree on that.

You could try telling me which bits you agree with and we could see if we can explore common ground without debating the bits we agree to disagree on.


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Location: Manchester UK | Registered: June 03, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Ok what I was getting at when I mentioned composting was this. I know composting is a completely different process requiring oxygen and the end result is of course NOT oil.But it is a relitively quick process. So based on that (excuse me if I sound misinformed because I may be)is it possible that we have it wrong and the oil formation was thousands of years versus millions? Do we have some proof that infact millions of years are required for this to happen. I don't know I'm asking
 
Location: new england | Registered: July 08, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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very delicately put. Before I go and research a proper answer for you, I will, let me ask you a similar delicate question in return.

As you recognise the two processes are not the same as each other and only loosly connected why would the speed of one make you question the speed of the other?

It seems as though you have an answer in your head you would like to be right and then look for evidence to support that answer; even sketchy evidence. That is the opposite way around to use evidence.

Rather than start with an answer we wish to believe in and find evidence to support it we should look at all the evidence and then see what kind of answer is suggested.

Even so what you are doing is better than just working without any regard for evidence. At least you care what the evidence is and want to know more about it. That's a good thing.

I'll find a good explanation of the process for you.


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Location: Manchester UK | Registered: June 03, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post



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as far as speed you sort of pegged it when you said they are loosly connected, that is what gets my curiosity.I don't believe I have an answer as you suggest,I think I am coming from a Question authority angle, to explain I mean if science tells us it takes xx years for the procces to occur did they base that on known time frames? See I guess in my mind this is how I connected the two albiet loosly. Does this make sense? Maybe to put it another way if I'm trying to solve a problem sometimes I will look at a similar situation and see if any of the steps that where used to solve it might help with the new problem.
 
Location: new england | Registered: July 08, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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one more thought maybe I do have an underlying reason for questioning the timing, but again it's from a different situation but it is based on facts. So when I see conflicting information from science (at least from my understanding of what is said) again I have the "question authority" concern,If you want me to get more specific on what I'm talking about maybe it would help you understand why my questions are about time issues.
 
Location: new england | Registered: July 08, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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