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How Biofuels will help destroy the planet: debate me
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quote:
Originally posted by Ingo:
sheash! welder i took a look at that site and gotta tell you man thats pretty damn close minded. yea, terrorism is a huge problem, but, to trying to eriducate a whole religion...the biggest one in the world?! sounds kinda nazi like to me......


I can't say I agree either, but islam isn't the "biggest" religion.
 
Location: Perth | Registered: April 17, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Islam isn't the biggest religion now, but it is the world's fastest growing religion and will be very soon.


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Everyone Should Read "Ishmael" by Daniel Quinn
 
Location: Woodstock, IL | Registered: May 28, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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More global warming. If you are using waste oil, carbon is being released into the atmosphere that was trapped in oil that would have gone into the ground.


Have you considered the amount of CO2 absorbed by a living plant? That is, while the plant is growing it absorbs CO2, which in the case of a biofuel that same CO2 is just being re-released into the air. Of course, I am not sure what the ratio is of CO2 absorbed in a plant's life-cycle to the CO2 released from the burning the resulting fuel, but I would imagine it is beneficial. Further, if you assume that new plants are being grown for fuel and all other reasons, then the CO2 released by biofuels should not exceed the CO2 absorbtion by living plants at any given time. Now you must compare this the CO2 released from burning fossil-fuel, which may may have absorbed CO2 millions of years ago, but have not helped reduce CO2 in recent history.
Also, if you consider that it typically takes 1 unit of energy to produce .83 units of petroleum diesel energy. Whereas, a well tuned WVO-based biodiesel plant can use 1 unit of energy and produce 3-7 or more units of energy. This means that for the amount of energy produced, less energy is used and thus less pollution is produced.

quote:
More petrodiesel/gas consumption. You are increasing the supply of car fuels, which drives down the price of diesel, which people will respond to by driving/consuming more.


This statement is just wrong. Biodiesel production will never increase the supply of petroleum diesel! While it may decrease the demand, it cannot increase the supply. Besides, as stated by others, oil companies now how to cut production to match demand or raise production and sell a greater volume. Therefore, Biodiesel production is independent of petroleum sales with the exception that lower prices may lure biodiesel producers away from feeling the need to produce biodiesel, but again that is erroneous as far as biofuels causing harm to the planet is concerned.

Finally, if WASTE vegetable oil is used as opposed to virgin vegetable oil, then the problem of using up food supplies or cooking oil is avoided all together. In particular, it is hard to believe that America's addiction to fried food will stop in the foreseeable future. Thus there is an ample supply of WVO that is either going to be thrown away or used in fuel.
 
Location: Dickinson College | Registered: June 05, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Originally posted by MercGreaseBus:
How Biofuels will help destroy the planet:


Without a reduction in car usage coupled with biofuel 's "carbon neutral" production you will get:

More global warming. If you are using waste oil, carbon is being released into the atmosphere that was trapped in oil that would have gone into the ground.

You make the erroneous assumption that waste oil that "goes into the ground" doesn't produce greenhouse emmisions. When it breaks down in soil, at least some of it will produce methane (a greenhouse gas that has a higher Global Warming Potential value than CO2, which it eventually decomposes to.)

quote:

More petrodiesel/gas consumption. You are increasing the supply of car fuels, which drives down the price of diesel, which people will respond to by driving/consuming more.


If we see an increase in the percent usage of diesel cars, partly due to biodiesel use, then one could reasonably assume that the fuel use per vehicle will drop, since diesels are more fuel efficient than petrol/gasoline engined vehicles.
Increased use of vehicles is a matter for education, and providing alternative transports.
Despite which, if you have a fuel that is greenhouse gas neutral, when scrutinised under a life-cycle analysis, then even an increase in vehicle use will only have an impact on greenhouse gas emissions due to the manufacture of the vehicles themselves, and possibly due to increased traffic congestion decreasing fuel consumption efficiency.

quote:

Environmental destruction: More farmland will be used to grow food for cars rather than people, and more wildlands destroyed for industrial GM farm production.

This ignores a lot of new research for potential biofuel production. Commercial biofuels are a relatively new technology, and have only really become under increased scrutiny now that the public is becoming more aware. As a result, we have really only just begun addressing the possible solutions to the pitfalls of biofuels.

In the near future, there are technologies that will be made commercially viable, to shift the demand for feedstocks away from farms, and towards waste products. Methanol and ethanol can be produced through processing waste (cellulose or biomass) and oil can be produced from algae. Perhaps one day this will even be combined with large atmospheric CO2 scrubbers.


quote:

I challenge anybody to prove me wrong in this important debate.


ok...
debates usually work both ways.
 
Location: Perth | Registered: April 17, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I think that fuel efficiency is important. At the moment, all converting used oil into biodisel, or pouring Mazola into your diesel does is keep a tiny bit of the most expensive oil in the ground. Adding biofuels to the mix in Europe, allows Euroepans to export petroleum products to the US, it doesn't cut down on the amount of fuel used in autos.
I think that biofuels are like a pay day loan, they might get you through the week end but if you had to rely on them full time without cutting back your expenditure you'd be up the creek (and in real trouble because you'd hocked the canoe, to pay the interest on the loans).
 
Location: London | Registered: October 27, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I agree,fuel efficentcy Is one of the more easier ways of reducing carbon emissions and the diesel is (in my mind anyway) an engine that can help.

We have to get away from the big is better mentality. Do we really need a 300+ horspower diesel pickup? 4wd with dual rear wheels? to pick up the groceries?

I'd love to see a small turbo diesel mated with a hybred drive for sale over here in a few models. I can't see how they wouldn't sell well but that's me


21 years off the grid and counting

 
Location: Muskoka, Ont, Can | Registered: March 23, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post



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Recent efforts into Hydrogen Fuel research have uncovered an improved method for creating hydrogen gas - the process utilizes microbial fuel cells to produce Carbon Neutral Hydrogen with *nearly 300% more energy than current procedures.
 
Registered: November 05, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Recent efforts into Hydrogen Fuel research have uncovered an improved method for creating hydrogen gas - the process utilizes microbial fuel cells to produce Carbon Neutral Hydrogen with *nearly 300% more energy than current procedures.


Here also: http://www.sciencefriday.com/program/archives/200711163?

You can listen to an interview about it there too.


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`86 Volkswagen Jetta NA: 9 Gallon Marine Tank>Transmission Cooler Tank Heater>TIH>FPHE>Coolant Wrapped Veg Filter>2, 3 Port Hydraforce Valves>Temp. Probe>Line Heater Specialist Injector Line Heaters>Vegtherm on Return>"Crud Catcher">Loop

Everyone Should Read "Ishmael" by Daniel Quinn
 
Location: Woodstock, IL | Registered: May 28, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Okay,debate this: Plants do not make oxygen or absorb Co2 ,the plants sugars that are depleted,need to exhaust from the stomata on the leaf or needle just as you defecate or have gas,okay,with me so far.

Stomata opens with a tone,oxygens rush in and mix with carbon exhaustive components and exit.

Oxygens not coupled to become Co2 can exhaust when gas pressure overcomes stomata port tension to come out in full sun .

Crickets and grasshoppers make that tone to open the stomata,as designed.You do not have to believe me,but that is your choice,because this grid scientist knows a whole bunch that you do not.

Try checking out Dr. Dan Carlsons Sonic Bloom for just "Some" Stomata opening tone information.

Any debaters out there? And as I sometimes say on other forums, I love to Joust.
 
Location: Michigan | Registered: May 03, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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joust this...
$0.88/gal
you might know a lot of useless science but i know how to make a 10,000lb truck go 500 miles on $34.00 Razz


Shawn

2006 F-250 6.0l PSD Crew W/ FS BED Runnin' on Homemade B-100 (NOT!!!) If you have a 6.0 DO NOT RUN B/D unless you have a LOT of money for injectors and fuel pumps and fuel injection control modules and...

This message will self destruct
 
Location: sunny Palm Bch.County, Fl. Home of the "Hanging Chad" | Registered: July 16, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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If you are using waste oil, carbon is being released into the atmosphere that was trapped in oil that would have gone into the ground.


I have to disagree. although under some circumstances the waste oil might be preserved, in most instances it would break down anyway.
 
Location: Nimbin Australia | Registered: December 04, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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im with fabricator in the dont give a crap, I can't save the planet but I can stick it to big oil. I know they don't notice me, don't care let me fly under the radar and drive for free! im also agree with ,trtmnt, i can go up to (single trip with no engine cool downs)875 miles on $2.00 (half gallon of dino for a flush and start up). i could go more but my trunk wont hold any more than 35 gallons wvo/wmo i am currently working on small 100 gallon tank trailer to get my range around 2700 miles for two dollars
 
Location: Florida | Registered: April 20, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post



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I can stick it to big oil

What is this "it" you believe you're sticking to big oil?
Bandying cliches about might give one some sort of warm fuzzy feeling, however the effect on big oil is negligible, and the only thing you're sticking "it" to is the environment.

The effect of that pollution will be much greater in cities where it adds to toxic smog than in sparsely settled areas where the effect might be considered negligible.

Personally I don't care what you burn, you're not up-wind of the air I breathe. However you might want to keep quiet about your pollution generating in your neighborhood, those eco-yuppies might just try to roast yer butt.



 
Location: coldest N.America | Registered: May 03, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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ICYMUDPUPPY
I think you are right. But I would add that people will not starve quietly. Politicians will blame another race or religion for their woes and wars will cull many.
The one thing we learn from history is we don't learn from history.
 
Location: Nimbin Australia | Registered: December 04, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Any debaters out there? And as I sometimes say on other forums, I love to Joust.


Yeah I like a good debate to but I am not familiar with Golgafrincham.
 
Location: Nimbin Australia | Registered: December 04, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Welder how about those evangelical christians trying to get the jews and the muslims to go to war and bring on the rapture. They are prepared to kill every person on the Earth so they can get to heaven, I wonder what JC would have thought about that.
All religions turn a good idea by a good man into evil. Jesus did not like churches and priests. But those who purport to speak in his name build churches and preach what they believe.
The Prophet Mohammad was also a wise man who preached honor and equality for all regardless of race.
Just because people of a base nature corrupt the ideals of a religion does not mean that the religion is evil.
Judge the man not the tribe(Mark Twain)
 
Location: Nimbin Australia | Registered: December 04, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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The effect of that pollution will be much greater in cities where it adds to toxic smog than in sparsely settled areas where the effect might be considered negligible.


My friend, this is exactly the problem. We have allowed cities to grow and in essence have put 100 pounds of stuff in a 1 pound box. In My Opinion cities should be regulated differently than rural areas. Take for example car exhaust. In LA, NYC, or any other big city they have millions of cars taking in air and pumping out exhaust. The human body can deal with this exhaust as long as the concentration of the bad stuff doesn't get to high. One car running on a 1 acre lot without any pollution controls will not be a problem. 100 cars running on that same lot will be a problem. Not add high rises and other geographical features that restrict the flow of air and you have a real problem. As a rural person I think it is highly unfair to make me conform to the standards that are needed in the cities. Cities have mass transit available, I do not. If I chose to eat, provide shelter, and the other necessities of life I must travel, it nothing more, I need to travel to my job. With the abundance of good clean air available I don't need low emissions car. In fact, what I need is a high efficiency car. Removing the pollution controls would solve my problem, but it would add to the problem of the city folks (aka Flat Landers). Why can't we have low emission cars for city people and highly efficient cars for rural people?


"What would you do with a brain if you had one?" Dorothy Gale
 
Location: Upstate, NY | Registered: November 05, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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In My Opinion cities should be regulated differently than rural areas. Take for example car exhaust. In LA, NYC, or any other big city they have millions of cars taking in air and pumping out exhaust. The human body can deal with this exhaust as long as the concentration of the bad stuff doesn't get to high. One car running on a 1 acre lot without any pollution controls will not be a problem. 100 cars running on that same lot will be a problem.


Very true Governments always want the one big fix. Lead in fuel was a problem in cities dumbing people down, but in the country it was a non event. Actually modern cars use more fuel and produce more CO2 so CO emissions can be reduced. The removal of lead lowered the octane rating of fuel which caused manufacturers to make engines with lower compression ratios, which lowered the power. To get the power back they made larger engines that consume more fuel.
Catalytic converters need some unburnt fuel in the exhaust to convert the CO to CO2. This means that the engine is running rich and not at peak efficiency.
 
Location: Nimbin Australia | Registered: December 04, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post



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This thread starter must be a pretty lonely person.
""Plants do not make oxygen or absorb Co2""
What kind of idiot would want to debate this??

No Trees or Plant life = Higher Co2 levels and Lower Oxygen levels.

There's nothing to debate about that...

Go Troll in another forum.
 
Registered: February 12, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Originally posted by john galt:
quote:
I can stick it to big oil

What is this "it" you believe you're sticking to big oil?
Bandying cliches about might give one some sort of warm fuzzy feeling, however the effect on big oil is negligible, and the only thing you're sticking "it" to is the environment.

The effect of that pollution will be much greater in cities where it adds to toxic smog than in sparsely settled areas where the effect might be considered negligible.

Personally I don't care what you burn, you're not up-wind of the air I breathe. However you might want to keep quiet about your pollution generating in your neighborhood, those eco-yuppies might just try to roast yer butt.


i am sticking hundreds of dollars a month to "big oil" i know they don't notice little old me but i look at it this way, if some-one gets "F" ed dose it realley matter how big the person was or how long it was for or how good it was, at the end of they day they still got "f"ed so yes i "f" them daily every day even if i don't go anywhere i crank my car just so i can stick it to them every day!

where i live in florida you have basically three types of people, old people ,cows,and red necks.guys around here call my car a redneck hybrid, diesel/grease/moter oil. The eco yuppys ,what few there are here, are trying to save the everglades. besides they don't seem to do the crazy things here in florida as they do out west. i think this law might be keeping them from lynching anyone here http://www.gunlaws.com/FloridaCastleDoctrine.htm
 
Location: Florida | Registered: April 20, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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