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How Biofuels will help destroy the planet: debate me
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How Biofuels will help destroy the planet:


Without a reduction in car usage coupled with biofuel 's "carbon neutral" production you will get:

More global warming. If you are using waste oil, carbon is being released into the atmosphere that was trapped in oil that would have gone into the ground.

More petrodiesel/gas consumption. You are increasing the supply of car fuels, which drives down the price of diesel, which people will respond to by driving/consuming more.

Environmental destruction: More farmland will be used to grow food for cars rather than people, and more wildlands destroyed for industrial GM farm production.



I challenge anybody to prove me wrong in this important debate.
 
Location: Tucson, AZ | Registered: May 03, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Biofuels are a temporary stopgap measure on the road to hydride, battery power and other drastically less polluting technologies. Bio-d won't save us. Green thinking consumer buying power and green technology might. Thats if the Jihadists don't start WW3 first. See www.faith freedom.org . If they ever nuke a North American city, Washington will instantly counterstrike every Muslim nation full force. The entire middle east will be one huge glass parking lot. Nobody will be able to park there for 20,000-30,000 years. We'll all die from the fall out (remember Chernobyl?). Before we do finally die of radiation sickness, the price of all fuels will go way up (joke). Doctors without borders says that nuclear weapons still represent the single largest threat against this planet. Pray for peace!
 
Registered: September 26, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Sorry, I accidently put a space between faith and freedom thereby preventing the link. See www.faithfreedom.org
 
Registered: September 26, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I personally dont give a crap, I cant save the planet but I can stick it to big oil and the mideast oil devils a little.
 
Location: West Michigan | Registered: April 26, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by fabricator:
I personally dont give a crap, I cant save the planet but I can stick it to big oil and the mideast oil devils a little.


The miconception that you are "sticking it to big oil" by not buying it is a big fallacy. Supply and demand economics says that you are helping reduce demand on petro fuels, which keeps price down, which consumers respond to buy buying more pwtro fuel.

Big oil, like BP (now Beyond Petroleum) ADM, and other huge corps are getting into biofuels anyway now. The significant portion of consumers will just buy biofuels at the pump, making Big Oil richer.

Your little Appleseed processor isn't cutting into corporate profits-friend.
 
Location: Tucson, AZ | Registered: May 03, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by MercGreaseBus:
quote:
Originally posted by fabricator:
I personally dont give a crap, I cant save the planet but I can stick it to big oil and the mideast oil devils a little.


The miconception that you are "sticking it to big oil" by not buying it is a big fallacy. Supply and demand economics says that you are helping reduce demand on petro fuels, which keeps price down, which consumers respond to buy buying more pwtro fuel.

Big oil, like BP (now Beyond Petroleum) ADM, and other huge corps are getting into biofuels anyway now. The significant portion of consumers will just buy biofuels at the pump, making Big Oil richer.

Your little Appleseed processor isn't cutting into corporate profits-friend.


It certainly allows me to keep more of my profits, and what happens when there are several millions of vehicles running on bio fuels? Still no problem for big oils bottom line?
 
Location: West Michigan | Registered: April 26, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post



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quote:
Without a reduction in car usage coupled with biofuel 's "carbon neutral" production you will get:

More global warming. If you are using waste oil, carbon is being released into the atmosphere that was trapped in oil that would have gone into the ground.

More petrodiesel/gas consumption. You are increasing the supply of car fuels, which drives down the price of diesel, which people will respond to by driving/consuming more.

Environmental destruction: More farmland will be used to grow food for cars rather than people, and more wildlands destroyed for industrial GM farm production.



I challenge anybody to prove me wrong in this important debate.


Quote:"More global warming. If you are using waste oil, carbon is being released into the atmosphere that was trapped in oil that would have gone into the ground.

The theroy is that carbon that "was allready trapped" is now being released. That is what the cause of Global Warming is all about. In theroy, if no mined (coal) or pumped (oil) fuel was burned, then there would be no additional carbondioxide in the atmosphere, thus no GW. The life cycle of carbon would be, carbon would continue to "go into the ground" untill (In theory) there is no more carbon in the atmospher. (Zeno would love this.)

Quote: "More petrodiesel/gas consumption. You are increasing the supply of car fuels, which drives down the price of diesel, which people will respond to by driving/consuming more."

Might be true, but as the cost of biodiesel from "New oil" is higher than petrodiesel, I don't think that my personal use is going to have much impact.

Quote:Environmental destruction: More farmland will be used to grow food for cars rather than people, and more wildlands destroyed for industrial GM farm production.

No one has said that BD is an answer to anything. All of the comments and studies I have read say that, even if all farm land in the U.S. was used to produce vehicle fuel (none used for food) it would only supply 10% to 20% of the fuel that this country uses. This (Biodiesel production) is for being able to do what one personaly can do. I can't supply all of california with enough biodiesel to power every car ane truck in the state. No one can. I can't even convince my sister to buy a diesel vehicle much less all vehicle owners everywhere. So the question that should (and has been) asked is "What is the role of Biodiesel, in the world energy market? I think it is to show one way to more effeciently utilize a natural resource, that being vegtable oil, and at the same time demonstrate that one does not have to rely on petrodiesel. Can it make a dent on the total (World or U.S.)consumption of oil? Not much. Could it reduce the income of oil companies? Not much. But it has been said over and over again, it is a part of the picture. Allbeit a small part, but a part none-the-less. When I produce and use biodiesel, I am not contributing to the problem and I am taking a very small step toward helping to a soulition.
 
Location: Modesto CA | Registered: April 24, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Hi All
The biggest problem we face right now is to get the world carbon cycle under control. For hundreds of years now we have been digging up,pumping out and burning carbon that was locked away for millions of years. The world is having trouble handling the extra carbon load. In the past ages, man has striped all the forests of the world for fuel. The carbon load changed and the world recoverd. Even a mini-iceage was turned around by the charcoal burners and they wiped out the forests of Europe to make a better fuel.
The world recovered from that also. It wasn't untill the start of the industrail age that the planet began to have problems. The problem was aways self solving, no forest-no charcoal burners, untill a limitless supply of fuel kept the industrail gears turing.
Bio fuels are not the answer to the problem of carbon load, the answer is to stop using carbon fuels to make the wheels go round! I don't want to ride my horse to work every day and I don't think we will ever go back to that.
Bio fuels are the best way to slow down the run away carbon cycle. All the hype about hydrogen, fuel cells, and hi tech answers is nice but we are years away from that being available and cheap.
If we can stop the growth of carbon in the world we will start to recover. Bio fuel is just a stop gap.
The oil industry needs us to use oil because they need the gasoline burned off. They make more money off the oil biproducts like plastics, wax, chemicals, and even the crap left at the bottom - you know the stuff they pave the roads with that the gosaloine sucking cars are dirving on!
 
Location: Bellingham WA | Registered: August 22, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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If Bio-fuels are driveing the price of petro fuels down, could you PLEASE tell us where. more of the carbon being released into the air means it is being more evenly distributed rather than highly concentrated. think about the world in front of you, not just the one in the back of your own limited mind.
 
Registered: July 04, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Conservation is crucial
I find that since I have begun brewing biodiesel I drive much less and bicycle and walk more. My labor rate is $25-50/hour. this makes my biodiesel worth about $9/gallon or $2.25/litre at the least. I save it for important stuff like going hiking.
I look forward to the end of the petroleum age with a feeling of impending adventure.
 
Location: Puyallup WA | Registered: December 07, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I am with YOU fabricator.


Good point there Eggman, when you have to bust your ^ss to make your own fuel, you appreciate what it does for you. Have you ever walked up a steep hill, and realized how little fuel it takes to propel you and several times your weight up the same hill at greater speed???
 
Location: SE Louisiana | Registered: July 19, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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The miconception that you are "sticking it to big oil" by not buying it is a big fallacy. Supply and demand economics says that you are helping reduce demand on petro fuels, which keeps price down, which consumers respond to buy buying more pwtro fuel.


There aren't enough Bio-diesel'ers out there (and probably won't ever be) to seriously make any impact on the supply/demand chain.

And that's the answer really - WVO/biofuel isn't meant to replace petrofuel, merely offer an alternative. If everybody started burning biofuels we would most likely have a whole list of other problems. The point is not to all consume the same thing. Picture humans as a plague-species. Simple creatures like locusts consume themselves out of their local environments. Humans, though, are equiped to be more versital. Unlike most other species we can eat either meat or vegetables, we can be athletes or philosophers, have chicken or fish, devils or priests... but if we all consumed the same thing or followed the same lifestyle we would certainly be gone by now.

It's not a traditional catholic philosophy but the benefits of a diverse society can clearly be exemplified throughout biology and throughout history.

read A Short History of Progress by Ronald Wright

http://www.anansi.ca/titles.cfm?pub_subid=237
 
Registered: October 26, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post



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In every "end of the world" novel I've ever read (and I've read several), the people who survive are the ones who know how to do things for themselves. Whether it be growing food or knowing how to treat common illnesses with home remedies; it's the people who don't let the "old ways" die that survive. None of us have the equipment or knowledge to refine petroleum into gasoline (or diesel)in our garages. We couldn't do it even if we had an oilwell in the backyard. But, making biodiesel IS something that we can do. It's pretty much low-tech and can be made out of home grown materials. Should/when the gasoline (or petrodiesel) pumps run dry (or otherwise become financially impossible to afford), those who can make/use biodiesel will be in a position to better survive. To me, it's not about sticking it to anyone, or saving a few dimes per gallon; it's about the comfort that knowing better how to survive when/if the need arises brings.
 
Registered: February 01, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Sorry, I accidently put a space between faith and freedom thereby preventing the link. See www.faithfreedom.org


I just had a chance to check out this scary website. Interesting - as I was reading I noticed you can replace the words "Islam" with "Christianity" and "Quaran" with "Bible" and it all holds to be as factual and relevant.
 
Registered: October 26, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by veggiecar300:
quote:
Sorry, I accidently put a space between faith and freedom thereby preventing the link. See www.faithfreedom.org


I just had a chance to check out this scary website. Interesting - as I was reading I noticed you can replace the words "Islam" with "Christianity" and "Quaran" with "Bible" and it all holds to be as factual and relevant.


Mmmm Hmmmm, right. Roll Eyes
 
Location: West Michigan | Registered: April 26, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Originally posted by MercGreaseBus:
How Biofuels will help destroy the planet:

Without a reduction in car usage coupled with biofuel 's "carbon neutral" production you will get:

More global warming. If you are using waste oil, carbon is being released into the atmosphere that was trapped in oil that would have gone into the ground.

More petrodiesel/gas consumption. You are increasing the supply of car fuels, which drives down the price of diesel, which people will respond to by driving/consuming more.

Environmental destruction: More farmland will be used to grow food for cars rather than people, and more wildlands destroyed for industrial GM farm production.

I challenge anybody to prove me wrong in this important debate.


let me preface this by saying that if you posted this in order to get attention, this post is the only one you'll see from me in this thread.

How biofuels will help NOT destroy the planet:
Reduction in car usage is not going to happen. With the appearance of a middle class in India, China and other emerging countries, the automobile usage can only go but up.

What has been happening since the the 70s is a reduction in emission in a couple of ways, mainly the addition to emission control devices (catalysts, air pumps, computers and so on..) to prevent harmful emissions and secondly the appearance of more efficient engines and transmissions. The weight and of the vehicles have been increasing however since the late 80s which somewhat counteracts the savings from the more fuel efficient engines. The engines in the pipeline will be acting like filters. The air going out will be cleaner than the one going in.

Waste oil does not go necessary back "into the ground". Most of it is either re-processed into other valuable resources (animal food is the main one that comes to mind), or in worst case used as fuel to keep landfills burning which releases the CO2 back into the atmosphere without the benefit of mobility. C02 always get recycled, either by an automobile using BioFuels, a fire in a landfill or a cow's flatulance. But "new" CO2 gets released into the atmosphere every time a barrel of oil gets pumped from the ground where it's been for million of years.

On the price of fuel. The petroleum diesel "saved" from people burning biofuels instead is not going to increase the supply and drive the prices down. You are stating this because you are also assuming that supply would stay constant. OPEC and other big petroleum wigs have demonstrated too often how they can regulate the output and control the prices. The supply just never stays the same and if the demand would go down (highly inlikely with the emergence of the middle class in emerging countries) the supply would just align itself downwards as well. The end result would be longer (in time) provisions for petroleum products.

On the plants for food vs mobility. People can choose not to drive. People cannot choose not to eat. This is an impossible scenario. Enough said.
 
Registered: October 18, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Rudolf your last point is very strong. And not one that has been thought through by politicians rushing into ethanol...
 
Location: London | Registered: October 27, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Yes you can grow a lot of food if we didnt have to have so much grazing land for cows. Since I stopped eating red meat I feal much better and have more energy.
 
Location: Windsor, ON | Registered: February 10, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post



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sheash! welder i took a look at that site and gotta tell you man thats pretty damn close minded. yea, terrorism is a huge problem, but, to trying to eriducate a whole religion...the biggest one in the world?! sounds kinda nazi like to me......
 
Location: St. Petersburg | Registered: July 05, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Part of the benefit of Biofuels is the "do it yourself locally aspect". Locally produced resources reduce the need for a huge logistical distrubution network. No more pipelines, oilrail cars, or fuel trucks would cut the consumption of energy significantly.

Other benefits of localization mean that when the population crash occurs, those locally independent communities will suffer less destruction.

For those of you who don't believe a crash is coming, Let me point out some things...

All Animals naturally reproduce until they exceed the carrying capacity of their habitat.

At that point they compete for the limited resources(war). YES WILD ANIMALS DO KILL THEIR OWN KIND DESPITE DISNEY.

At that point they experience more transmission of disease from higher population concentrations(pestilence).

At that point they starve from lack of available resources(famine).

The resulting population crash(death) brings populations down to a fraction of peak levels and the growth cycle begins again.

Any part of the world that requires imports of food staples such as corn, wheat, rice, or potatoes because it doesn't produce enough of it's own to feed its own populace has already exceeded the carrying capacity of that region. This includes most of the middle east, Subsaharan Africa, India, East China, West Europe, and the NE United states. Any large city also qualifies as overpopulated.

Local crashes in those overpopulated areas have been prevented by global trade with underpopulated High Agricultural production areas such as west China, Eastern Europe, the western US, Canada, and Most of S. America.

Unless the overpopulated areas are allowed to experience local crashes, than the global population will continue to grow until it exceeds the global carrying capacity, and we will see the full force of a Global Human Population Crash.

When that time comes (and I hope it's after my death) I hope that my knowledge of biofuels, and agriculture, combined with living in a rural community away from concentrated populations will mean that my genetic line will survive into the next cycle and guarantee my Darwinian success.

I hate to be a doomsayer, but unless the world starts implementing Positive mandatory population control measures such as China's One child policy, I don't see any way to avert a crash.

The only way we can avert crashes among wild animals is by implementing higher harvests by hunters and trappers. Though such techniques rarely fully stop the crash, but simply soften it so the populations can recover faster. With domestic animals, such control is easier as we can cull the herd at will.

-Jack Thompson
Wildlife Biologist.


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Location: Centralia, WA | Registered: March 06, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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