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Enough time invested and I'm sure it would work. Mines got the turbo as well and I really enjoy driving it. It's fun to feel the turbo spool up and the resulting power from all 68 pony's kicking in Big Grin

I fount a 97 in the wrecking yard that some kid was trying to put back on the road. He never did and it's been there for some time now. I could see me tranfering the diesel into that gas bucket an continuing on,It's only got 369 thousand on it.

Just broke in....


21 years off the grid and counting

 
Location: Muskoka, Ont, Can | Registered: March 23, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by john galt:
quote:
We have no troops in Canada, Venezuela, Mexico, Saudi Arabia or any other part of the world protecting oil. ScareCrow57

Iraq? Oh right, they're not there because of the world's 2nd largest oil deposit, they're liberating the Iraqis for democracy and freedom...
That's why they went directly to the oil institute and made sure all the oil field geology records were confiscated for safe keeping, while they let the museums be looted.

In the aftermath of Operation Desert Storm, the United States stationed 24,000 troops and 26 warships in the Persian Gulf on a long‐term basis to ensure continued access to Middle East oil and to promote regional security and stability—objectives first articulated by the Truman administration a half century earlier.
I suppose the navy ships still in the Persian Gulf are there on a pleasure cruise?

Get real!!! The US spends billions on it's military, jut to make sure the oil that keeps the economy running continues to flow freely from the MidEast.


Ahhh Geez....Not this crap again. Iraq is number 15 on the list Wiki Article on Petroleum

The top 10 are Saudi Arabia, Russia, USA, Iran, China, Mexico, Canada, UAE, Venezuela, and Kuwait. Missing from the list are Bosnia and Afghanistan. We are fighting a World War on terror where the combatants come from a number of countries. I don't know if you have been paying attention, but the battleground is moving from Iraq to Afghanistan.


"What would you do with a brain if you had one?" Dorothy Gale
 
Location: Upstate, NY | Registered: November 05, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by 12voltdan:
quote:
Silly Boy. There are still maintainence cost and repair cost.



Oh? other than batteries I haven't had any in 12 years. what should I be maintaining? Are you now a solar expert? from your armchair?

This system runs itself 24/7 including equalization and any other dump load I may choose to install

Taking what I said before on costs the average person spends about 200 a month on electric bills (this is just an average some are more some are less)

In ten years thats 24 grand. For that kind of money one could set up a pv system of about 3 kw and at an average of 4 hours of sunlight thats 12 kwh a day on average

Not extravagant by some standards but comfortable enough to live on.

Days like we experience now in the summer could easily pull in 35 kwh

plenty of power


It suddenly becomes apparent that you are speaking of a little system on your own property, while I am speaking of a large commercial facility. In a large facility there would be numerous parts, connections, controls, and grounds/facility maintenance. On top of that would be all of the regulatory controls, government oversight and records keeping. In some areas the panels would need to be hurricane and/or tornado proofed.

Now for your economic analysis. It is a nice rudimentary way of looking at things. However, you neglect the future value of your money. If the money invested was to gain 6% ( I know this is a low number) it would take nearly 20 years to see a return on the investment. That assumes that there are no maintenance costs along the way. Inverters are solid state devices, the silicon in those devices breaks down over time. They will need to be replaced. Also, if you have batteries they get replaced as well. And if you have panels that are self positioning you will need to maintain the controls and systems that position the panels. This example assumes that inflation remains constant.

It also assumes that the system will provide only enough power for your own use. You neither sell nor buy from the utility. I don't know about where you may live, but around here in the winter time we get about 10 hours of sunshine a day. We also get days and weeks at a time when you don't see much sun at all. That as I see it is the biggest problem with solar. At the time of year I need it the most, I get the least amount of sunshine. The other issues around here is that they would get covered with snow and ice.


"What would you do with a brain if you had one?" Dorothy Gale
 
Location: Upstate, NY | Registered: November 05, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by JohnTF:
He seems to believe what he thinks he knows , believers close there minds to information , new or old .
Understanding facts requires an open mind , ready for new information , then accepting when the new info is shown to be facts .


Yes, I have noticed that about him as well. Presented with piles of data, facts and research he will stick to his beliefs, even if they are wrong. I the flip side I can appreciate a man of conviction. It makes the task of changing his mind much more difficult resulting in much more research. This what has happened in the Who says the science is settled thread. While researching and learning even more I have found that there is a great deal of disagreement on the cause and effect. In fact they are finding that some of the earlier predictions are failing and the models are being adjusted . In some cases, the prediction has gone from gloom and doom to rosy and cheery.


"What would you do with a brain if you had one?" Dorothy Gale
 
Location: Upstate, NY | Registered: November 05, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Air Pollution Causing Widespread And Serious Impacts To Ecosystems In Eastern United States
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/07/080721160250.htm
ScienceDaily (July 22, 2008) — If you are living in the eastern United States, the environment around you is being harmed by air pollution. From Adirondack forests and Shenandoah streams to Appalachian wetlands and the Chesapeake Bay, a new report by the Cary Institute of Ecosystem Studies and The Nature Conservancy has found that air pollution is degrading every major ecosystem type in the northeastern and mid-Atlantic United States.



 
Location: coldest N.America | Registered: May 03, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
It suddenly becomes apparent that you are speaking of a little system on your own property, while I am speaking of a large commercial facility.


there's no need for large comercial facilities

quote:
Now for your economic analysis. It is a nice rudimentary way of looking at things. However, you neglect the future value of your money.


The value of a dollar is constantly going down the value of energy is going up at least in the real world

solar does go down in the winter but can be supplimented by other means that was figured into my calculations.

If personal power became the norm there would be a lot more redundency in the grid and we wouldn't be at the mercy of price hikes. Makeing one own power also makes one more responsable in using it


21 years off the grid and counting

 
Location: Muskoka, Ont, Can | Registered: March 23, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post



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quote:
Air Pollution Causing Widespread And Serious Impacts To Ecosystems In Eastern United States
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/07/080721160250.htm
ScienceDaily (July 22, 2008) — If you are living in the eastern United States, the environment around you is being harmed by air pollution. From Adirondack forests and Shenandoah streams to Appalachian wetlands and the Chesapeake Bay, a new report by the Cary Institute of Ecosystem Studies and The Nature Conservancy has found that air pollution is degrading every major ecosystem type in the northeastern and mid-Atlantic United States.


Not a pretty picture,the EPA has just released a similar report on climate change and the heath effect assosiated with it in the future.

doesn't exactly give a guy a warm fuzzy feeling


21 years off the grid and counting

 
Location: Muskoka, Ont, Can | Registered: March 23, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by 12voltdan:
there's no need for large comercial facilities


I tend to disagree. Larger facilities can produce more power, more efficiently, and more safely. Plus, if you place them at various places around the country, along with excess capacity, you cna generate power in sunny areas and supply it to areas that are under stormy and/or cloudy conditions. Remember, we don't supply electricity to just homes. There are office buildings, manufacturing facilities, and all the waste (traffic lights, street lights, water systems, sewer systems,etc) that is found in the cities.

quote:
The value of a dollar is constantly going down the value of energy is going up at least in the real world

solar does go down in the winter but can be supplimented by other means that was figured into my calculations.

If personal power became the norm there would be a lot more redundency in the grid and we wouldn't be at the mercy of price hikes. Makeing one own power also makes one more responsable in using it


The value of a dollar goes down do to inflation, which I stated I ignored. If one accounts for inflation it takes even longer to realize the return on investment.

What other means do you use to supplement your power when there is no sunshine? Is it coming off the grid?

So let's say I decide to make my own power. I decide I will use solar. I put in my panels, the inverter, and even a battery storage system. All is good, then one day a thunderstorm rolls through, large hail takes out my panels. Obviously, I don't have spare panels setting around (like a commercial facility would). I can't afford to have no electricity for more than a day (food in the fridge likes it, I need to get water for a shower, etc.) How do I get back up and running? Redundancy is only good if all personal systems create excess electricity. You also create a chaotic system rather than a well controlled system.


"What would you do with a brain if you had one?" Dorothy Gale
 
Location: Upstate, NY | Registered: November 05, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by john galt:
Air Pollution Causing Widespread And Serious Impacts To Ecosystems In Eastern United States
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/07/080721160250.htm
ScienceDaily (July 22, 2008) — If you are living in the eastern United States, the environment around you is being harmed by air pollution. From Adirondack forests and Shenandoah streams to Appalachian wetlands and the Chesapeake Bay, a new report by the Cary Institute of Ecosystem Studies and The Nature Conservancy has found that air pollution is degrading every major ecosystem type in the northeastern and mid-Atlantic United States.


Interesting read from 2 Environmental organizations. Sort of like Big Oil saying that we need to continue using oil for transportation purposes. And here is something that came up the other day, how come you need to change your oil every 3000 miles? Some cars say once a year or 25,000 miles. I use synthetic oil and change it twice a year.


"What would you do with a brain if you had one?" Dorothy Gale
 
Location: Upstate, NY | Registered: November 05, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Interesting read from 2 Environmental organizations. Sort of like Big Oil saying that we need to continue using oil for transportation purposes.

Lame Ad Homenum reply with absolutely no substance to refute the findings of the study.
From this we can see you concur with the findings and can't offer a factual rebuttal.



 
Location: coldest N.America | Registered: May 03, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by 12voltdan:
quote:
Air Pollution Causing Widespread And Serious Impacts To Ecosystems In Eastern United States
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/07/080721160250.htm
ScienceDaily (July 22, 2008) — If you are living in the eastern United States, the environment around you is being harmed by air pollution. From Adirondack forests and Shenandoah streams to Appalachian wetlands and the Chesapeake Bay, a new report by the Cary Institute of Ecosystem Studies and The Nature Conservancy has found that air pollution is degrading every major ecosystem type in the northeastern and mid-Atlantic United States.


Not a pretty picture,the EPA has just released a similar report on climate change and the heath effect assosiated with it in the future.

doesn't exactly give a guy a warm fuzzy feeling


Actually my friend, you must take this with a grain of salt. These people have been claiming the end of all humanity since their organization. Anything man does harms the environment (according to them). They would prefer we all go back to living in caves.


"What would you do with a brain if you had one?" Dorothy Gale
 
Location: Upstate, NY | Registered: November 05, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by ScareCrow57:
quote:
Originally posted by 12voltdan:
quote:
Air Pollution Causing Widespread And Serious Impacts To Ecosystems In Eastern United States
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/07/080721160250.htm
ScienceDaily (July 22, 2008) — If you are living in the eastern United States, the environment around you is being harmed by air pollution. From Adirondack forests and Shenandoah streams to Appalachian wetlands and the Chesapeake Bay, a new report by the Cary Institute of Ecosystem Studies and The Nature Conservancy has found that air pollution is degrading every major ecosystem type in the northeastern and mid-Atlantic United States.


Not a pretty picture,the EPA has just released a similar report on climate change and the heath effect assosiated with it in the future.

doesn't exactly give a guy a warm fuzzy feeling


Actually my friend, you must take this with a grain of salt. These people have been claiming the end of all humanity since their organization. Anything man does harms the environment (according to them). They would prefer we all go back to living in caves.


Put up wind turbines? Poo Poo that kills too many birds, Dams? Nope disrupts the lives of fish. Solar power? Nah uses to much energy and resources to manufacture the panels. Mention nuclear and watch the top of their head blow clean off.
 
Location: West Michigan | Registered: April 26, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post



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Put up wind turbines? Poo Poo that kills too many birds, Dams? Nope disrupts the lives of fish. Solar power? Nah uses to much energy and resources to manufacture the panels. Mention nuclear and watch the top of their head blow clean off.


Exactly. I couldn't agree more with you on this one. And I think there are a whole bunch of people who will pay more for the hydro and wind power that is generated because they have this notion it is good for the earth and society. The green energy should be cheaper, especially when coming from Hydro plants that have been in existence for 50 years or more. Hydro, like solar, has no cost once it is installed and running.


"What would you do with a brain if you had one?" Dorothy Gale
 
Location: Upstate, NY | Registered: November 05, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by ScareCrow57:
quote:
Put up wind turbines? Poo Poo that kills too many birds, Dams? Nope disrupts the lives of fish. Solar power? Nah uses to much energy and resources to manufacture the panels. Mention nuclear and watch the top of their head blow clean off.


Exactly. I couldn't agree more with you on this one. And I think there are a whole bunch of people who will pay more for the hydro and wind power that is generated because they have this notion it is good for the earth and society. The green energy should be cheaper, especially when coming from Hydro plants that have been in existence for 50 years or more. Hydro, like solar, has no cost once it is installed and running.


Well. you cant say it has no cost, large wind farms and hydro electric plants will always have maintenence costs replacement equipment costs, and people work at these facilities so there are labor costs, and the cost of maintaining the distribution system, so to say once it is running there is no cost is wrong.
 
Location: West Michigan | Registered: April 26, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Green energy shouldn't be cheaper any more than oil from domestic wells shouldn't be sold for less than world price.

Always taking the near-sighted cheapest alternative is what got America into this current economic problem. They'll have to totally rethink their perception of quality if they want to find a way out of it.

I don't hold much hope for enlightenment with the sheeple of today.



 
Location: coldest N.America | Registered: May 03, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Green energy is cheaper , if for no other reason , is many costs [ military , lives , exploration , political games to get access , its a long list ] are not being included , in most all accountings that are out there , " figure do not lie , but liars can figure " .
Then on the other end , the cleanup issues / side effects of old energy .
This where the terms should be changed , from green to new , because like mention earlier , there seems to be some brainwashing , implying that green has no effect , then some complain about the shade in the desert from solar panels , thats going too far , there is never [ thats a bad term ] going to be an action with no reaction .
But we should freely move from old to new , with out the corrupt / greed , getting in the way of change .
It seems to me to help solve that last issue , is to keep new , limited to local , non centralized = causing something attractive for those that have a mental disease " the desire to control / hoard .
The free market only works when free [ owned by many ] not [ owned by few ] , much like natural selection , growth with diversity , death /stagnation without many options/diversity .
 
Location: St.Paul | Registered: March 24, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Green energy is cheaper

...usually when the cost to the environment is ignored.



 
Location: coldest N.America | Registered: May 03, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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But we should freely move from old to new , with out the corrupt / greed , getting in the way of change


That's a hard trend to get to with the old boys and their greed in the way.

I think (and hope) that people will move to smaller networks for power,maybe a neighborhood type of power grid that we are seeing spring up in some developments now. A type of community power grid.

quote:
by John
...usually when the cost to the environment is ignored.


are you saying green isn't cheaper? or just dirtier than oil? I'm not sure what your point is


21 years off the grid and counting

 
Location: Muskoka, Ont, Can | Registered: March 23, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post



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are you saying green isn't cheaper? or just dirtier than oil? I'm not sure what your point is

Green Energy isn't necessarily cheaper when the cost to the environment is included. In some cases it could be cheaper, but why should a kilowatt of Green Energy be sold for any less than a kilowatt of Black Energy?



 
Location: coldest N.America | Registered: May 03, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by john galt:
quote:
are you saying green isn't cheaper? or just dirtier than oil? I'm not sure what your point is

Green Energy isn't necessarily cheaper when the cost to the environment is included. In some cases it could be cheaper, but why should a kilowatt of Green Energy be sold for any less than a kilowatt of Black Energy?


For the same reason Diesel used to be cheaper than gasoline, it cost less to make it.


"What would you do with a brain if you had one?" Dorothy Gale
 
Location: Upstate, NY | Registered: November 05, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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