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This is too funny my friend

BEIJING STEPS UP BATTLE AGAINST SMOG

This happens to be a socialist city.

quote:
But if the authorities here have their way the smogwatch could come to an end after this weekend, when construction sites around Beijing will suspend operations until Sept. 20. The work stoppage also extends to mines, chemical plants, and factories – even those in neighboring provinces.
Only in a place where the government provides for you can the government do this. Luckily our free society doesn't work that way.


"What would you do with a brain if you had one?" Dorothy Gale
 
Location: Upstate, NY | Registered: November 05, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Does anybody know the cost recovery period for a typcial gas or coal power plant? I don't, but it is probably less than 10 years. A ten year recovery period represents a return on investment of 7.2% per year, which wouldn't get any attention from investors, and that's all they care about. I would guess that traditional electric facilities have cost recovery periods more like 4-6 years, meaning ROI around 15% - that's what typical investors are looking for.

But I do know that right now, environmentalists fight every wind, hydro,or solar (yes, even solar - claiming that it will kill birds flying too close to solar concentrators) installation proposed. I sometimes feel like environmental groups are shills for the fossil fuel industry.

The problem is that the fossil fuel industry is threatened by renewables, and is fighting against them in every way possible, pushing through legislation to subsidize their industry, and environmental regulations to hamper the growth of green power. Right now, there is no comparable profit motive pushing green power. Maybe companies that manufacture green power equipment could band together, but it would be David vs. Goliath.

It is all very unfortunate, but true. People (sheeple, I call them) DON'T WANT TO MAKE ANY SACRIFICES or lifestyle changes. They want their hummers, they want their 4000 square foot houses for 4 located 60 miles from where they work, and they want cheap, throwaway goods from China.

We, my friends, are the minority. If we can find a way to live off the grid, like 12VoltDan, we can. But we won't get any help from govornment or industry. They are completely vested in the status quo. And they won't even try to change until crisis is already here. Govornments can only react to crises, never avoid them. And industry will reap massive profits in those last, desperate days and they know it. They already are. I hate to be so pessimistic, but when the lights go out, and there is no gas at the gas station, only then will the sheeple even realize that we can't go on like this forever.

We're p***ing into the wind, trying to get people to change. We can change ourselves, becuase we know its right, but its about impossible to get most people to even listen to a logical arguement, let alone apply logic to their own lives. Society has trained people NOT to think, and to accept every illogical rationalization that lets them go on believing that nothing is wrong because that favors the status quo. Look at Al Gore. The only 'green movement' that motivates him is greenbacks moving into his pocket. He has latched onto the green movement for power and profit. If he couldn't enrich himself, he never would have given it a second thought.
 
Location: Charlotte, NC | Registered: July 08, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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DTaylor , I agree , can't find fault with any of that .
We as a species are devolving , at almost every level .
And I think it is happening on by plan , foul up the education system , because its easier to manipulate stupid people , than smart people .
 
Location: St.Paul | Registered: March 24, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
But I do know that right now, environmentalists fight every wind, hydro,or solar (yes, even solar - claiming that it will kill birds flying too close to solar concentrators) installation proposed. I sometimes feel like environmental groups are shills for the fossil fuel industry.


I object to calling them enviornmentalists,they are idiots plain and simple. their objections are not based on common sense but mostly a "not in my back yard" mentality. Ever notice that it's always a local as in the neighbourhood assosiation that's doing the objecting?

the rest of your post I have to agree with the lemmings of our society will go over the cliff soon enough and the people that prepared have a chance at making a life for themselfs

All one can do is try to educate the ignorant,if they are not going to listen that's their choice.

quote:
We as a species are devolving , at almost every level .


I agree,I see that as well in the products we by and the information we learn.

I think a correction is comming.....


21 years off the grid and counting

 
Location: Muskoka, Ont, Can | Registered: March 23, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I suppose that you guys have noticed that Biejing is taking millions of cars off the road to try and improve the air quality enough for it to be usable for the Olympics. Imagine doing that in Mannhatten or London.
Pity that it will revert to smog when the Olympics is over.
regards
dva
 
Location: Yorks,England | Registered: June 30, 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by dva:
I suppose that you guys have noticed that Biejing is taking millions of cars off the road...

It was posted last week on this discussion and mostly ignored...
quote:
Imagine doing that in Mannhatten or London.


At least London is moving in the right direction with congestion taxes on vehicles in the urban core, and increasing fuel prices to encourage more efficient use.


quote:
We're p***ing into the wind, trying to get people to change. We can change ourselves, becuase we know its right, but its about impossible to get most people to even listen to a logical arguement, let alone apply logic to their own lives. Society has trained people NOT to think, and to accept every illogical rationalization that lets them go on believing that nothing is wrong because that favors the status quo.


Yeah, that about sums it up.
Beijing and London can make it work because they're socialist governments that put the society ahead of the individual. But it's like shouting Biblical scripture in a Mosque to propose socialist or even communist solutions to the urban blight in the USofA.



 
Location: coldest N.America | Registered: May 03, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post



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dva

do you know how that tax in London is working? If I recall correctly it was about equivalent to 8 bucks our money.

Is it working?


21 years off the grid and counting

 
Location: Muskoka, Ont, Can | Registered: March 23, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Does anybody know the cost recovery period for a typcial gas or coal power plant? I don't, but it is probably less than 10 years. A ten year recovery period represents a return on investment of 7.2% per year, which wouldn't get any attention from investors, and that's all they care about. I would guess that traditional electric facilities have cost recovery periods more like 4-6 years, meaning ROI around 15% - that's what typical investors are looking for.
quote:


I'm not really sure myself, I do know that sometimes these projects do take 10 to 15 years to pay for themselves. It all comes down to loan rates, future value of money, and a bunch of hocus pocus.

But I do know that right now, environmentalists fight every wind, hydro,or solar (yes, even solar - claiming that it will kill birds flying too close to solar concentrators) installation proposed. I sometimes feel like environmental groups are shills for the fossil fuel industry.
quote:


You are 100% correct about this. In my neighborhood we have a bunch of NYC people and others from out of the area telling us how to live and objecting to everything that would harm "wilderness" character. Can't do anything here without some NYC lawyer objecting. FYI NYC is about 250 miles away. And just try to build a hydro project. The Sierra Club, Audubon Society, Greenpeace, and every other activist organization will be screaming about. These are true hypocrites.

The problem is that the fossil fuel industry is threatened by renewables, and is fighting against them in every way possible, pushing through legislation to subsidize their industry, and environmental regulations to hamper the growth of green power. Right now, there is no comparable profit motive pushing green power. Maybe companies that manufacture green power equipment could band together, but it would be David vs. Goliath.


Not so sure about this either. Even the big oil companies are investing in green technologies. I believe Exxon is developing a better battery. And isn't there a guy who made his money in big oil pushing Wind Power?

I see Hydro and Wind as the best alternatives here, solar just isn't there. Besides, solar will trap the heat at the surface thus driving up surface temperatures.

quote:
It is all very unfortunate, but true. People (sheeple, I call them) DON'T WANT TO MAKE ANY SACRIFICES or lifestyle changes. They want their hummers, they want their 4000 square foot houses for 4 located 60 miles from where they work, and they want cheap, throwaway goods from China.


You are almost correct. I would like a better life style, which means I don't have to sacrifice anything. I don't drive a big SUV, but I do live 50 miles from where I work. I have absolutely no use or desire to live in a city. The quality of life sucks!!! But that is where the work is. So I must commute. As for Chinese goods, I can't afford that junk, I need to buy good stuff. Problem is finding good quality stuff.

Isn't it ironic how the fasting growing economies are socialistic/communist countries with no regard for their people or the environment?

Like I said, I wanted to buy green power because I thought it would be cheaper. No way should it cost more.


"What would you do with a brain if you had one?" Dorothy Gale
 
Location: Upstate, NY | Registered: November 05, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
I see Hydro and Wind as the best alternatives here, solar just isn't there. Besides, solar will trap the heat at the surface thus driving up surface temperatures.


Get a grip,next you'll be saying solar's responable for global warming.

You get nuttier by the day

quote:
Like I said, I wanted to buy green power because I thought it would be cheaper. No way should it cost more.


It doesn't as has been shown to you by others.You will never get and deserve whats coming


21 years off the grid and counting

 
Location: Muskoka, Ont, Can | Registered: March 23, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Here is your proof.

GreenUp Providers Note It costs an ADDITIONAL Price per kwh

Next, think about the solar. What does it do? It takes the heat from the sun and uses it here. How do solar hot water heating systems work. For the solar to work it has to take in energy from the sun and convert it to electricity or store it here. That is just simple physics.


"What would you do with a brain if you had one?" Dorothy Gale
 
Location: Upstate, NY | Registered: November 05, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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whatch your electric bill for the next few years and see where it goes.

Once solar is bought it is a fixed rate and will never rise and who knows how long it will work. Fifty years is not out of reach at all


21 years off the grid and counting

 
Location: Muskoka, Ont, Can | Registered: March 23, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by ScareCrow57:
Here is your proof.

GreenUp Providers Note It costs an ADDITIONAL Price per kwh

Next, think about the solar. What does it do? It takes the heat from the sun and uses it here. How do solar hot water heating systems work. For the solar to work it has to take in energy from the sun and convert it to electricity or store it here. That is just simple physics.


ScareCrow57
Solar electric does not use heat , if the panels are not there that same light still is .
Knowing that claims of the corrupt greedy is good to see , but they are the last ones you want to use for info .
Figures do not lie , but lairs can figure .
How much cost are they not putting in for the lives of the military that is keeping control of someone els's oil .
Physics means nothing if the math is wrong .
 
Location: St.Paul | Registered: March 24, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post



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quote:
Originally posted by JohnTF:
quote:
Originally posted by ScareCrow57:
Here is your proof.

GreenUp Providers Note It costs an ADDITIONAL Price per kwh

Next, think about the solar. What does it do? It takes the heat from the sun and uses it here. How do solar hot water heating systems work. For the solar to work it has to take in energy from the sun and convert it to electricity or store it here. That is just simple physics.


ScareCrow57
Solar electric does not use heat , if the panels are not there that same light still is .
Knowing that claims of the corrupt greedy is good to see , but they are the last ones you want to use for info . Figures do not lie , but lairs can figure .
How much cost are they not putting in for the lives of the military that is keeping control of someone els's oil .
Physics means nothing if the math is wrong .


Photovoltaic cells work by absorbing photons. When a photon hits a piece of silicon one of three things can happen

1. the photon can pass straight through the silicon
2. the photon can reflect off the surface
3. the photon can be absorbed by the silicon

When the photon is absorbed a reaction takes place which changes the energy from light to electrical. This process in turn creates heat. So rather than reflect the enrgy back into space, it is absorbed.

We have no troops in Canada, Venezuela, Mexico, Saudi Arabia or any other part of the world protecting oil. However, the cost I car about is the one I see on my bill. If I buy from a supplier who has renewable energy I will pay more.


"What would you do with a brain if you had one?" Dorothy Gale
 
Location: Upstate, NY | Registered: November 05, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by 12voltdan:
whatch your electric bill for the next few years and see where it goes.

Once solar is bought it is a fixed rate and will never rise and who knows how long it will work. Fifty years is not out of reach at all



Silly Boy. There are still maintainence cost and repair cost.

My electric bill is going through the roof. My fuel cost are going through the roof. And there is no reason for it.


"What would you do with a brain if you had one?" Dorothy Gale
 
Location: Upstate, NY | Registered: November 05, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
We have no troops in Canada, Venezuela, Mexico, Saudi Arabia or any other part of the world protecting oil. ScareCrow57

Iraq? Oh right, they're not there because of the world's 2nd largest oil deposit, they're liberating the Iraqis for democracy and freedom...
That's why they went directly to the oil institute and made sure all the oil field geology records were confiscated for safe keeping, while they let the museums be looted.

In the aftermath of Operation Desert Storm, the United States stationed 24,000 troops and 26 warships in the Persian Gulf on a long‐term basis to ensure continued access to Middle East oil and to promote regional security and stability—objectives first articulated by the Truman administration a half century earlier.
I suppose the navy ships still in the Persian Gulf are there on a pleasure cruise?

Get real!!! The US spends billions on it's military, jut to make sure the oil that keeps the economy running continues to flow freely from the MidEast.



 
Location: coldest N.America | Registered: May 03, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Silly Boy. There are still maintainence cost and repair cost.



Oh? other than batteries I haven't had any in 12 years. what should I be maintaining? Are you now a solar expert? from your armchair?

This system runs itself 24/7 including equalization and any other dump load I may choose to install

Taking what I said before on costs the average person spends about 200 a month on electric bills (this is just an average some are more some are less)

In ten years thats 24 grand. For that kind of money one could set up a pv system of about 3 kw and at an average of 4 hours of sunlight thats 12 kwh a day on average

Not extravagant by some standards but comfortable enough to live on.

Days like we experience now in the summer could easily pull in 35 kwh

plenty of power


21 years off the grid and counting

 
Location: Muskoka, Ont, Can | Registered: March 23, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
My electric bill is going through the roof. My fuel cost are going through the roof. And there is no reason for it.


Tough,If you don't want to believe the facts that have been presented to you, too bad.

Shut up and deal with it or look into gene therapy


21 years off the grid and counting

 
Location: Muskoka, Ont, Can | Registered: March 23, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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He seems to believe what he thinks he knows , believers close there minds to information , new or old .
Understanding facts requires an open mind , ready for new information , then accepting when the new info is shown to be facts .
 
Location: St.Paul | Registered: March 24, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post



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quote:
Originally posted by 12voltdan:
quote:
the others rusted away long before the engine


Heh heh heh,Know the problem.

My 87 jetta has kept me busy migging in patches in the floor.

Or move the drivetrain into some thing North American

One more winter (hopefuly) and then I have to get somthing else.
 
Location: Muskoka, Ont, Can | Registered: March 23, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by 12voltdan:
quote:
Originally posted by 12voltdan:
quote:
the others rusted away long before the engine


Heh heh heh,Know the problem.

My 87 jetta has kept me busy migging in patches in the floor.

Or move the drivetrain into some thing North American

One more winter (hopefuly) and then I have to get somthing else.


I thought about getting an old military jeep & putting a turbo ed VW diesel in that , getting closer to having my cake & eating it too .
 
Location: St.Paul | Registered: March 24, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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