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Here's Something for All the Global Climate Change Denialists...
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quote:
Originally posted by -wewantutopia-:


As for the forests, forests do NOT need human management. They have been managed via nature for hundreds of millions of years. The start of the problem was allowing the brush to build up AND having a no burn policy so if lighting struck and a fire started the fire would be put out as soon as possible. That allowed the brush to accumulate. The brush is dealt with in nature just fine. Now the brush is piled up and they've gone from a no burn to a let burn to a controlled burn and I forget what they're on now, but the fires are unstoppable because of all the brush we've allowed to build up by interfering with yet another of nature's cycles.


I believe we are on the same page here. Years ago (maybe 300), when a fire started in the forest it burned until it burned itself out. Now man has intervened and stopped the natural burning of forests. Somehow, we need to compensate for that.


"What would you do with a brain if you had one?" Dorothy Gale
 
Location: Upstate, NY | Registered: November 05, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Originally posted by -wewantutopia-:
These are good points but still place the responsibility upon humans. We still have to drastically reduce our population to be sustainable and drastically reduce our consumption/production of all the "heat producing" devices/products/industrial processes to be anywhere near sustainable.


Great idea. You first.


--There is no Magic Bullet.--

If bigger is safer, buses are safest.
Save yourself, use Transit.
 
Location: Clemson, SC | Registered: March 02, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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You're next...


I second this...I'm already well on my way.


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Everyone Should Read "Ishmael" by Daniel Quinn
 
Location: Woodstock, IL | Registered: May 28, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by -wewantutopia-:
quote:
You're next...


I second this...I'm already well on my way.


To be more pointed, I was referring to the "we must drastically reduce our population."

My standard reply to anyone saying population reduction is a must is to allow the wonderfully selfless person their rightful place at the head of the line.

As for the rest, I'm on my way as well. I hardly even drive anymore, only perhaps a day or two a week, everything is a long-since paid for bicycle and the bus system.

I do not own the home in which I live, but I have improved and insulated where I could: insulation blocks for windows, CFLs where incandescence has died and darkness where light is not needed, other such small, one-step instances. If it is cold, I put on a jacket. Very cold? A hat, thicker socks. Beyond that, perhaps I'll turn the heat on.

I just don't much care to parade what "I've done" and hit up a "you next" attitude. Unless someone starts saying we should start dying off to save the world.


--There is no Magic Bullet.--

If bigger is safer, buses are safest.
Save yourself, use Transit.
 
Location: Clemson, SC | Registered: March 02, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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That's a funny thing there Turbine. I work with a guy who absolutely believes we are causing the world to warm. And I'm OK that he believes that. But he comes into our office (a 24 x 7) operation, and turns on all of the lights. Mind you there is a low lighting that never goes out in the halls and such. He even turns on all of those lights. I just chuckle every time he does it. It's obvious, that like so many, they have no idea about the total system and what they are doing. If was really serious about cutting emissions he wouldn't be turning on the lights.

I drive 100 miles a day to get to work. Have to go where the jobs are you know. Used to be jobs around here but environmentalism drove them all away. Now the area is economically depressed. Although, some of the things that were done were good. For instance, this was a large leather town. so the tanneries all dumped their waste right into the creek though town. Creek ran a different color every day. So some good came out of it. You can actually see fish in the creek now. And it doesn't smell.

I run CFL bulbs as well, except in the garage. They take to long to warm up. I insulate well when I refurbish, and I put in a new energy efficient furnace. Which is something that kills me as well. The alarmist scream about power plants, factories and autos putting out all kinds of CO2. You never hear about furnaces, or other home heating and cooling systems. All of which contribute.

I do what I can to save energy, but these are purely economic decisions. Which I'm guessing the lefties have to be happy about the rising fuel prices. Makes me laugh when they blame Bush. We all know the greenies are behind the rising fuel prices.


"What would you do with a brain if you had one?" Dorothy Gale
 
Location: Upstate, NY | Registered: November 05, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Now, let me ask this. Just what does it mean to measure the temperature of the world? How is that done? Is it really accurate? Are the measurements we have really good indicators?

Ask this, What is the temperature of NYC? Do you take the daily high and average that over 365 days to get an annual temperature? Do you take the temperature at a particular time each day? Do you take hourly, or by the minute, temperatures and average those to get the daily temperature.

What about the location? The front of my house (southern exposure) sees different temperatures than the back of the house. I live 50 miles from the local airport which is the official weather site. Sometimes temperatures at the airport are exactly the same as at my home, others, they vary by 15 degrees, usually lower. Temperatures tend to be closer during inclement weather. When it goes below zero we typically get the 10 to 15 degree colder readings. We also see this in the springtime. So are 3000 data points really accurate and a good indicator of the entire globe?

And really, temperature measurements should represent something that is at a steady state. The temperature at any given point on the globe is constantly changing and not at a steady state. And temperature measurements are typically used to indicate that the volume of the substance being measured is at the same temperature.

And let us speak of the proxy measurements. How do we know that over time the indicators haven't merged? How do we know they are really accurate? There is just so much that isn't known. Our temperature and CO2 measurements are best guesses. What if the best guess is wrong?


"What would you do with a brain if you had one?" Dorothy Gale
 
Location: Upstate, NY | Registered: November 05, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post



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Well if supply and demand were all that drove the price of oil it would be that simple. Personally, I believe that the oil companies are making huge profits because they charge what people will pay. There is plenty of supply that exceeds the demand. The oil companies started raising the prices and found out that no matter how high they raise the price people still pay.


"What would you do with a brain if you had one?" Dorothy Gale
 
Location: Upstate, NY | Registered: November 05, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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This is very much true. And I am all in favor of finding more efficient ways of using this oil as well as finding alternative means of producing energy. The worlds oil supply will someday run out. Can't say when, but it will happen. I suspect that one day drilling in the ANWR will happen, and there will be more nuclear power.

What really irks me is the enviro-nuts. The run around screaming we need cleaner burning cars, we need to cut emissions, we need to save the earth. And when one proposes putting up some wind turbines they scream we can't do that because it will look ugly. I wish the environmental lobby could get their collective heads out of the sand and work towards solutions, not roadblocks Mad

And that is todays soapbox sermon. Sorry!!

I would love to find a wood powered electric generator. I have 100 acres of wood with more junk stuff than anyone could ever use. And the stuff just keeps growing.


"What would you do with a brain if you had one?" Dorothy Gale
 
Location: Upstate, NY | Registered: November 05, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Now here is a guy who has it altogether
Top scientist to address global warming at Herzliya conference

According to Lomborg, who arrived in Israel over the weekend, there is no doubt that global warming caused by humans is taking place. But there are exaggerations , he says.

And this is why the alarmist have little credibility
quote:
"Nobel laureate Al Gore talks about a rise of six meters, but the United Nations team of scientists on climate change says that it is only a matter of a few dozen centimeters, and that is a significant difference."


Don't worry about short term goals of cutting emissions. Look at the long term. Heck, if the ocean is going to rise then don't build cities in places like New Orleans, which is already below sea level. Roll Eyes Give me a break!!


"What would you do with a brain if you had one?" Dorothy Gale
 
Location: Upstate, NY | Registered: November 05, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Posted Jan 19, 12:58 PM Hide Post
There is plenty of supply that exceeds the demand. The oil companies started raising the prices and found out that no matter how high they raise the price people still pay.

I would put it a bit differently. The oil companies have been drilling as fast as possible (and highly motivated to do so), yet cannot keep up with demand. No matter how fast they drill, they've been able to sell every drop. It still comes back to supply and demand. Many people wonder innocently why "they" don't just drill more wells, as though that isn't happening. I would be surprised to hear that any drilling rigs are idle.
 
Location: Moses Lake, WA, USA | Registered: August 15, 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Originally posted by johno:
quote:
Posted Jan 19, 12:58 PM Hide Post
There is plenty of supply that exceeds the demand. The oil companies started raising the prices and found out that no matter how high they raise the price people still pay.

I would put it a bit differently. The oil companies have been drilling as fast as possible (and highly motivated to do so), yet cannot keep up with demand. No matter how fast they drill, they've been able to sell every drop. It still comes back to supply and demand. Many people wonder innocently why "they" don't just drill more wells, as though that isn't happening. I would be surprised to hear that any drilling rigs are idle.


They would love to drill more wells, the greenies won't let them. And honestly, I haven't seen any rationing or stations out of fuel. And we still have a whole bunch of oil reserves that Presidents Clinton and Bush refused to dip into. And just wait until Hillary gets into office, the price of fuel will double again.

It isn't just supply and demand. Brokers come in and bargain for the price for raw crude. They expect to make money off the raw crude and simply jack up the price to the consumer. They pat $100 a barrel because they know the consumer will pay far more. And it is to their advantage to get, process, and resell all the oil they can. The more gallons they sell the more profit they make.

As consumers we could drive the price down by simply staying home on the weekends. Seems to many would rather go the the Hamptons instead. I live in a mountain community that attracts all the folks from the rotten apple, New Jersey, and Massachusetts. If all those folks stayed home with those big SUVs, pickup trucks, campers, and such the tanks would stay full. The problem isn't the demand, it's that they are able to sell it for that price because the people with those big cars and SUVs don't care about paying high bucks to have their fun.


"What would you do with a brain if you had one?" Dorothy Gale
 
Location: Upstate, NY | Registered: November 05, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Yea, never answered the oil well question. Don't know what I would do with it. If I knew there was an infinite pool I would pump away. If I knew that several others were also taping into the same pool underground, I would pump like crazy. If I had a limited pool and the only one with access I would scale back and pump as needed to satisfy my own needs.

Let me tell you a little story about supply and demand. I was once looking at cars and noticed hat the pickup truck setting next to the car cost nearly twice as much. A short time later I was at a trade show where I met an engineer from Ford. I asked him why does it cost so much more to build the pickup. The answer was amazing. It doesn't cost more, actually cost less. But people are willing to pay more for pickup trucks so they charge more. I imagine the whole notion of the fuel millage for the fleet didn't help things either.

I'm still waiting on the wood powered car. Cut down a couple of trees, toss the stuff in, and drive away. Even if I had to run it through a processor that would be ok too. I'm not so sure about this whole ethanol thing. Seems it is driving up the price of corn and grains, which in turn is driving up the price of food, and worse than that, it's driving up the price of beer!!! Eek


The one fact remains, there are far better ways to spend our money than trying to control nature. Global warming and cooling will happen with or without man. The seas will rise with or without man. Storms will happen with or without man. Usually one tackles the small problems first and moves up to the bigger problems. If we can't solve the smaller problem of how to control the weather and predict the weather tomorrow how can we expect to control the weather and predict 100 years from now. What I would really like to see is a long term prediction, say 5000 years or more. Bet the Alarmist don't want us to see that data.


"What would you do with a brain if you had one?" Dorothy Gale
 
Location: Upstate, NY | Registered: November 05, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post



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LMAO!!!! I know the answer, all we have to do is put more aerosols in the air. These will block the sun, and the world cools.

quote:
Aerosol technically refers to airborne liquid droplets or solid particles (also called dust or particulate matter (PM)).


But I just read something utterly absurd. Some chucklehead wants to bring CO2 emissions back to 2000 levels by 2025. Does this nut case realize the only way to do that is decrease the population.

And what do you think will happen when power companies have their CO2 emissions capped. Limited supply. Who decides who gets the power. Will it go to homes, industry, government? Will there be only certain times of the day you can use power? Or will every one go on a demand meter?

Just another mechanism for the left to get their hands in your pockets and control your lives. Whatever happened to live and let live?


"What would you do with a brain if you had one?" Dorothy Gale
 
Location: Upstate, NY | Registered: November 05, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Hey Dan, found a paper you might want to read Global Climate Models Violate Scaling of the Observed Atmospheric Variability

quote:
We test the scaling performance of seven leading global climate models by using detrended fluctuation analysis. We analyze temperature records of six representative sites around the globe simulated by the models, for two different scenarios: (i) with greenhouse gas forcing only and (ii) with greenhouse gas plus aerosol forcing. We find that the simulated records for both scenarios fail to reproduce the universal scaling behavior of the observed records and display wide performance differences. The deviations from the scaling behavior are more pronounced in the first scenario, where also the trends are clearly
overestimated.


Translation, the predictions of future global warming aren't all that good


"What would you do with a brain if you had one?" Dorothy Gale
 
Location: Upstate, NY | Registered: November 05, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Just when you thought the debate was settled and the scince was exact.

Global warming reducing hurricanes in U.S., report says

So the predictions of more and nastier hurricanes has already been proven wrong. What else is in error?


"What would you do with a brain if you had one?" Dorothy Gale
 
Location: Upstate, NY | Registered: November 05, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Is it any wonder the movement has no credibility, They poster kids are Gore and Bono. POLITICIANS, not scientist, not engineers, not even anyone with an understanding of normal everyday life.

Gore predicts worsening climate change

And worse yet, they lie about the science and the evidence. It is hard to believe anything that comes out of the leftist rebels mouths.


"What would you do with a brain if you had one?" Dorothy Gale
 
Location: Upstate, NY | Registered: November 05, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Originally posted by ScareCrow57:
Is it any wonder the movement has no credibility, They poster kids are Gore and Bono. POLITICIANS, not scientist, not engineers, not even anyone with an understanding of normal everyday life.

Gore predicts worsening climate change

And worse yet, they lie about the science and the evidence. It is hard to believe anything that comes out of the leftist rebels mouths.


And then there is this little ditty from the environmental movement

quote:
WASHINGTON (AP) - The Bush administration has decided to open more than 3 million acres to logging in the Tongass National Forest in southeast Alaska. Supporters of the plan believe it will revive Alaska's timber industry but environmentalists fear it will devastate the forest.


Government opens 300,000 acres of national forest to logging

Apparently the enviro-nuts don't know jack about logging nor do they know that the trees will keep on growing.


"What would you do with a brain if you had one?" Dorothy Gale
 
Location: Upstate, NY | Registered: November 05, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by ScareCrow57:
quote:
Originally posted by ScareCrow57:
Is it any wonder the movement has no credibility, They poster kids are Gore and Bono. POLITICIANS, not scientist, not engineers, not even anyone with an understanding of normal everyday life.

Gore predicts worsening climate change

And worse yet, they lie about the science and the evidence. It is hard to believe anything that comes out of the leftist rebels mouths.


And then there is this little ditty from the environmental movement

quote:
WASHINGTON (AP) - The Bush administration has decided to open more than 3 million acres to logging in the Tongass National Forest in southeast Alaska. Supporters of the plan believe it will revive Alaska's timber industry but environmentalists fear it will devastate the forest.


Government opens 300,000 acres of national forest to logging

Apparently the enviro-nuts don't know jack about logging nor do they know that the trees will keep on growing.


And we follow this with this little bit of information
Ethanol: A bad idea hits Colorado’s gas pumps Seems ethanol is more expensive, produces less energy, and still makes CO2 ( there is a carbon molecule in it). Really makes you wonder if it is really worth the effort.


"What would you do with a brain if you had one?" Dorothy Gale
 
Location: Upstate, NY | Registered: November 05, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post



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THIS IS INCORRECT:
'Copernicus once said that the earth was the center of the universe, and a majority of scientist agreed with him'.
Copernicus acutally said exactly the opposite!
 
Registered: March 01, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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To be more pointed, I was referring to the "we must drastically reduce our population."

My standard reply to anyone saying population reduction is a must is to allow the wonderfully selfless person their rightful place at the head of the line.


I'm surprised I didn't notice this sooner. I will gladly do my part in population control...however, not by suicide ( Roll Eyes) but by having a planned, managed family. No more that 2 kids, maybe only 1. No more than enough for my wife an my replacement. It is quite irresponsible in this day and age to have extremely large families (can you say the Duggars from that tv show)...not that it shouldn't be ones choice, but the people who do choose to have rediculusly large families are just irresponsible (in terms of the well-being of our species).


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`86 Volkswagen Jetta NA: 9 Gallon Marine Tank>Transmission Cooler Tank Heater>TIH>FPHE>Coolant Wrapped Veg Filter>2, 3 Port Hydraforce Valves>Temp. Probe>Line Heater Specialist Injector Line Heaters>Vegtherm on Return>"Crud Catcher">Loop

Everyone Should Read "Ishmael" by Daniel Quinn
 
Location: Woodstock, IL | Registered: May 28, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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