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6.5L Injection Pump Optical Sensor
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Joe,

Thanks for the info… I did the lift pump really hotwire yesterday. I’m not getting the CPS code but now getting the Timing reference High Resolution Signal A code (P0370)as well as the old Injection Pump Fuel Metering Control A code (P0251) that started all of this…

The engine is running but has lost all the power it had before. I think I will need to put in a remote PMD with a cooler. Is the intake manifold mount better then the bumper mounted one??? I don’t like the idea of having vital parts below my axels where rocks and boulders can kill them…

Is the Timing code coming from the IP? Or is it some where else??? My battery cables look good. I have yet to take them off at both ends and clean them but they ohm out as good. I think that I am just pushing the gremlins around to new places a I apply each fix…. Razz
 
Registered: May 31, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Ron, Viton can be bought from Mcmaster carr www.mcmaster.com search viton
 
Location: coquitlam B.C, | Registered: October 05, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Dunce,
(not sure if I like calling you that) No, IMHO the manifold mount PMD cooler is no better that the stock placement on the IP. The only reason it's done like that is because the plug doesn't reach any farther. I made up a new harness for mine and put it behind the grille, rocks and boulders can't reach it there. I can give you the service manual flow charts for each code if you like. Not looking promising, though. Smile


Blessings. Joe 1999 Chevy Suburban w/new optimizer 6500 TD and 1995 Chevy Cube van 6.5L. WWW.RillaBioFuels.com
WWW.RillaBioFuels.com
 
Location: Sterling Hts. Michigan USA | Registered: October 18, 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Well this beast has over 350,000 miles on it and the dealer told me to junk it. I would like to get it running. I think if I can get the PMD signals back to normal it would it. Do You have the pin outs and where to get the connectors to make a PMD harness? I can get a large heat sink for a lot cheaper then everyone on the net is selling them for so that would not be a problem it is just getting a new PMD…

I’m not sure what I would do with the flow charts. Maybe at least I would know what sensors can mess up what when the go bad… At lest I would have some clue as to what is going on…
 
Registered: May 31, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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DD,
Ihave the pin-outs, but you don't really need them. The connectors I got from work. You can use the ones from your old harness, or buy them at a dealership (big hassle). Make the wiring the same color and there should be no problems. I did not make just an extension cord, but a new harness with the two connectors and the two ring terminals for the back of the IP. You sometimes get this small harness with a new PMD, but it is stock length, so you're no better off. PMDs are available at any dealership or on Ebay.
Yeah, I just used a large finned heat sink from and old power supply, a whole lot cheaper than the PMD coolers that a lot of places sell. Smile


Blessings. Joe 1999 Chevy Suburban w/new optimizer 6500 TD and 1995 Chevy Cube van 6.5L. WWW.RillaBioFuels.com
WWW.RillaBioFuels.com
 
Location: Sterling Hts. Michigan USA | Registered: October 18, 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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If you want a BIG heat sink, I have one about 10" square, fins 2" deep, and the base is a good 1/4" thick. I was going to use it for mine, but I decided to get the Heath Diesel one, so I still have it. $8 plus shipping?


1985 Mercedes 300D, sold, Heat exchanger and injector line heaters, all single tank. 1997 E300D Benz ... biodiesel.
 
Location: Cocoa Beach FL | Registered: September 12, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post



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quote:
Originally posted by priespa1:
Reuben,
That stalling out can be either the optical sensor, or the PMD acting up.
The optical sensor is just a "safety" device that cuts out the fuelpump if the engine is not running. Many just disable it, reasoning that diesel fuel does not burn that easy, so in the event of a crash it would take a quite large fire to ignite the diesel fuel.
If I had one of those breaking down on me, I'd probably hotwire it too.
Paul

I don't know where you came up with this info but none of it is correct (Or close).
The optic sensor is not a safety device. It is a 512 resolution timing sensor for the IP.It uses infared light to "see"(key word) through a 512 slot encoder wheel in the IP to give high resolution timing reference to the ECM. If you disable it the engine will run in a default mode (Utilizing the cranshaft sensor only) This default fuel mode is like running half throttle.It will get you home but you won't want to run like this.
If your fuel is cloudy or dark the optic sensor will miss timing reference's in the high resolution signal (Sensor can't read encoder wheel slots through dark fuel). The ECM will throw a code and then run in default fuel mode (Crappy) until the problem is fixed and the code is cleared(important). I know a whole LOT about the 6.5tb GM.
 
Registered: April 24, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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That explains a lot. The dealer disconnected the crank sensor and I have hotwired the lift pump relay. The engine has just enough power to move the truck up to 45MPH and that’s it. So if I clean out the tank, reconnect the crank sensor flush the fuel line I should be back in business??? Big Grin
 
Registered: May 31, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by jaggerdss:
quote:
Originally posted by priespa1:
Reuben,
That stalling out can be either the optical sensor, or the PMD acting up.
The optical sensor is just a "safety" device that cuts out the fuelpump if the engine is not running. Many just disable it, reasoning that diesel fuel does not burn that easy, so in the event of a crash it would take a quite large fire to ignite the diesel fuel.
If I had one of those breaking down on me, I'd probably hotwire it too.
Paul

I don't know where you came up with this info but none of it is correct (Or close).
The optic sensor is not a safety device. It is a 512 resolution timing sensor for the IP.It uses infared light to "see"(key word) through a 512 slot encoder wheel in the IP to give high resolution timing reference to the ECM. If you disable it the engine will run in a default mode (Utilizing the cranshaft sensor only) This default fuel mode is like running half throttle.It will get you home but you won't want to run like this.
If your fuel is cloudy or dark the optic sensor will miss timing reference's in the high resolution signal (Sensor can't read encoder wheel slots through dark fuel). The ECM will throw a code and then run in default fuel mode (Crappy) until the problem is fixed and the code is cleared(important). I know a whole LOT about the 6.5tb GM.


The VP-44 does NOT use an Optical Position Sensor.....

It has a Magnetic device consisting of two coils. and is mounted inside the pump connected to the FPCM by a ribbon-cable.....


--------------------------
www.doctordiesel.co.uk


"As for testing, know now that----
only mechanisms built by bunglers require testing.---
Properly-built machines work properly." 'Doc' Smith.
 
Location: Swansea, U.K. | Registered: March 09, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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The VP-44 does NOT use an Optical Position Sensor.....

It has a Magnetic device consisting of two coils. and is mounted inside the pump connected to the FPCM by a ribbon-cable.....

The 6.5 does not use a BOSCH VP44 injection pump.The Cummins does. Wrong vehicle buddy!
 
Registered: April 24, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Originally posted by Diesel Dunce:
That explains a lot. The dealer disconnected the crank sensor and I have hotwired the lift pump relay. The engine has just enough power to move the truck up to 45MPH and that’s it. So if I clean out the tank, reconnect the crank sensor flush the fuel line I should be back in business??? Big Grin

He must have disconnected the optic sensor not the crankshaft sensor as the engine will run without the optic but not the crankshaft sensor. Make sure fuel is clear(Filter also) run for a while (flush IP), then clear codes with scantool or codes will clear after so many key cycles (Can't remember how many). Easier with a scantool.
 
Registered: April 24, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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So I installed a used pmd bench tested and still stalls after acceleration. I did not replace the 5 amp receptor, does it make a dif. I am wondering if I should have an electrical test to see if the optical sensor is throwing the code. Any recomendations. Its my runner and am now stunned and fed up. Please help, Thanks Jes
 
Location: Fennville, MI | Registered: July 16, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post



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Originally posted by JesseTaylor:
So I installed a used pmd bench tested and still stalls after acceleration. I did not replace the 5 amp receptor, does it make a dif. I am wondering if I should have an electrical test to see if the optical sensor is throwing the code. Any recomendations. Its my runner and am now stunned and fed up. Please help, Thanks Jes

Bench test a PMD? I would like to see that!(Unless hooked to a ECM and engine on a becnch.)
Have you check your OPS (Oil Pressure Switch?) or the lift pump/relay? Also the ignition switch. As I have stated before, missed high resolution references from the optic sensor will not kill the engine. It will meerly run in a default lowered fuel delivery mode. It will also throww a code and the check engine light will come on. PMD failure will cause the engine to suddenly die but also if your ignition switch is bad it will do the same thing (A common overlooked problem). And it can set false codes as power for many things (PMD,Trans,etc..) runs through it. If the lift pump or relay is acting up it will also kill the engine. The OPS controls the lift pump relay also. No oil pressure and the lift pump will shut down.
As far as the 5 amp receptor. I have no idea what that is? Nothing of the sort on a 6.5 diesel.(Or anything else that I can think of)
 
Registered: April 24, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Interesting - 6.5 will run w/o optic sensor?
I thought maybe that was my problem. I know it will run w/o the OPS since I did hotwire my lift pump after replacing it and it seemed to not work some of the time.

I have problems and need some wisdom and if you would be so kind to write back, I would be so thankful. Here are the facts:
I have been running on home brew: heavily filtered (down to 2 micron) WVO in a mix of 10% Kero, 5% Gasoline, DIesel Kleen, mineral spirits & naptha. This mix runs great and did on good mixes for about 5 thousand miles until we had a bad batch of Chinese WVO that was questionable. It had a green tint and we think that motor oil was mixed in at the bottom of the tank. At fillup, the trucks would die right away and restart at a idle but die when put in gear. Total clean out worked and running dino seemed to work.

My 1998 K3500 pickup continued to have problems with trouble codes pointing to injector pump metering and crankshaft pos sensor. IP was replaced. Truck ran good for a couple of thousand miles. This Chinese stuff was still left as residuals in a couple of contauners we had. We had to dump the tank on this 98 twice before to get it to run and it seemed that the CHinese mix had something very deadly to the truck. Somehow we think a very little bit of this deadly fuel was washed in from the sides of a tank. Anyway after fillup, truck died at same spot on the road as before, except it would not start. Code read that the Manufacturer Computer and seneor inputs. I swapped a computer (ECM) from running truck to no avail. Came back in several hours and truck started and ran to get it home running rough and stalled once. It started and ran to driveway and stalled. It has not started since. We cleaned out the tank. I opened the tank since I have total access (Dump Truck Pickup). I checked all lines after refill with dino. I found that a new lift pump was not pumping - replaced and have a geyser at the filter cock. Codes from the last 1 mile run indicate: IP fuel metering control, IP Timing & crankshaft pos sensor. Replaced crankshaft position sensor. Fuel is a geyser at the filter and shooting out at the IP line in but, no fuel is evident at the injector. Opened and later removed the lines from the injectors and no fuel is getting to the injectors on extended crank. I have checked all electrical connections, grounds, etc. It seems that this deadly mix had wrecked something in the IP. Do you have any ideas?

Thanks so much

Bob
 
Registered: September 06, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Have you changed out your PMD? It has to be relocated out of the engine bay in any case, mine is just under the front bumper, mounted on a heat sink. This is the #1 reason for no start and stall out conditions. If its bad, you won't be able to run and have to replace it.

IP - I'm replacing mine next week, slowly died to the point where it will start the engine when cold, and run OK, but can't hot start it. If you can get it running, do the following test - get up to operating temp, then while in park slowly run it up to 2000 rpm, hold it there, and slowly run it down. If you can't ramp it up smoothly and hold it, and it drops to idle instantly when you try to ramp it down, your IP is most likely gone.

I find it hard to believe that a few ounces of residual "bad" fuel could cause these problems. Look at the PMD first, then see if the IP is not working, maybe a snapped impeller shaft. Hope this helps.


'97 GMC Suburban 2500 - 6.5 turbodiesel - 203,000 miles
2-Tank WVO conversion
 
Location: NH | Registered: August 24, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Thanks - very familiar - swapped PMD from running truck. No fuel at injectors but fuel is delivered to IP inlet. IP seems to be shutting new IP down
 
Registered: September 06, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Hey Dave
Thanks for your input on both sites. I took notice to your goldenrod conversion. I am interested in your history with veggy. I have had troubles but I think bad source is the reason as I had a good run with it on several trucks.
 
Registered: September 06, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Hmmm. All of these sound valid, I suppose. Let me sum up what you might think could be the problem with the IP:

1. PMD (gets too hot). Solution: PMD isolator
2. OS (gets too hot? or just doesn't run right or doesn't start). Solution: Replace OS, disconnect it, or connect it to something else?
3. IP in general. Solution: replace IP

Well, before I suggest another problem from a diesel engine specialist, I want to remind the forum as to my unique issue.

After putting some biodiesel that likely had glycerol contained within, my 1998 GMC C2500TD 4x4 6.5L engine has consistently started with a cold start. But when it warms up (or runs for 20 minutes are so), I have difficulty restarting it after turning the engine off for a few minutes.

If this problem sounds familiar, Please continue with my repairs:
1. replaced the oem fuel filter, tank, sender unit, some rubber tubing at the IP, and glow plugs.
2. cleaned the fuel line, filter canister and heating element, 2 micron cone filter.
3. Checked the return line (clear), electric fuel pump (10psi at start).
4. Followed fuel system diagnostic procedures offered in an earlier post.
5. Installed the PMD isolator.

Problem persists. Well, we called Precision Diesel in West Babylon. This gentlemen, Wayne, said emphatically that "the problem is your injector pump." When I asked why? he stated emphatically, "It is common for these pumps to fail due to the lack of lubrication in the ultra low sulfur diesel". He stated that the IP can fail within a month to 2 years from this if you don't put an additive in each tank full.

I said I put bad biodiesel in it, and he stated it would merely complicate the process that was already happening before you put it in.

I am not stating that his diagnosis is correct. I am merely offering it to the forum for your review. Personally, I heard that the Ultra low sulfur fuel now has an additive in it.

But more so, I offered to you if you have similar problems after replacing the filter, that the solutions are not always easy. We basically rooted it down to something in the injector pump has failed. What and why is a mystery to this date. We are removing the injector pump today. If I am present, I will take a picture of what I see.

In the meantime, brothers, let me know if there is adequate lubricant in the current diesel fuel to maintain this engine's finicky ip or if this man needs an adjustment of his diagnosis.
 
Location: Baiting Hollow, NY | Registered: May 17, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post



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Hello Kevin. The guy at Precision Diesel has it exactly right, the IP is gone. I'm not a long time diesel operator, nor a diesel expert, but I've been reading a lot and listening and learning. There is no question that if you eliminate the obvious problems such as pmd, lift pump, and bad gas cap creating vacuum, a 6.5 that cold starts fine and won't hot start has a bad IP. This is very well documented on several diesel sites and is confirmed to me by Heath Diesel, perhaps the best source of info on 6.5's in the country.

They gave me the following test to double check - start the engine and bring up to operating temp. While in park, try to run the engine smoothly and slowly up to 2000 rpm's, hold it there, and smoothly ramp it down to idle. If you can't do this, it is further proof that the IP is bad. In my case I kind of lurched up to 2000, couldn't hold it there, and once I let up slightly it dropped to idle at once.

ULSD - this fuel does not have the lubricity to safely operate older diesels. They say it is OK for newer models designed to run on it, I'm even not sure of that, but I know my '97 can't run on it without additives. I add 8 oz. Power Service additive to 25 gal. diesel (1:400 ratio) and 16 oz. 2-stroke oil TCW-3 type to 25 gal. (1:200 ratio) to each fill-up. Other additives are as good or better than Power Service, its just easy for me to get. I do this after quite a bit of research on this. Hope this helps!


'97 GMC Suburban 2500 - 6.5 turbodiesel - 203,000 miles
2-Tank WVO conversion
 
Location: NH | Registered: August 24, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Originally posted by losthenfound:
Hey Dave
Thanks for your input on both sites. I took notice to your goldenrod conversion. I am interested in your history with veggy. I have had troubles but I think bad source is the reason as I had a good run with it on several trucks.


I don't have a very long history with veg, only about 4 months now. I have a bit different approach than a lot of people here, I don't want to collect and filter my own fuel. There is a local start-up company here that is rendering oil, then filtering and dewatering to sell it as wvo fuel. They are not in the bio business, are just focused on wvo. I buy my fuel from them, so my savings isn't like someone who does it themself, but I like the technology and using renewable, recycled fuel. I put a lot of miles on so I could go through a lot of veg in a year, maybe 1,000-1,200 gallons or more.

I bought my Suburban as a project, I knew that I'd put some work and $$$ in to get it reliable and running the way I want. If all goes well that will be the case in a few weeks. I'm really having fun with it.

From what I have learned, there is nothing more important than having clean filtered, dry fuel. There are always stories of vehicles that can run on anything, dump it in the tank and go. If fact, there are certainly a few vehicles that have exceptionally tough fuel systems that can start and go on almost any fuel. The truth is for most of us that isn't the case, we need really high quality fuel to run with a minimum of problems and long engine life.

Please, I have to say it again, I don't have long experience with this so read the advice of some of the long time users and experts here, but I'm learning as fast as I can!


'97 GMC Suburban 2500 - 6.5 turbodiesel - 203,000 miles
2-Tank WVO conversion
 
Location: NH | Registered: August 24, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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