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blending methanol with regular gas
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with gas at 4.00 and methonal at 2.30 how much methanol can i blend in my wifes opec dependent late model toyota.i know the flex fuel cars can take e 85 so you would think you could run those on m 85 but if it not flex fuel ready what would methanol hurt? i cant really afford to buy her a diesel so my thought is m50 would bring her fuel cost down 17.00 dollars per 20 gal tank. any thoughts


05 vw golf 17k on b-100
fuopec
 
Location: angier | Registered: June 27, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Because methanol has a much lower energy content you will be paying about 2x per mile with methanol vs gasoline. Assuming 20MPG that's like paying $4.60 for 20 miles on methanol, vs $4.00 for 20 miles on gasoline. For every gallon of methanol you add to the mix you're losing money.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G...ne_gallon_equivalent

If you want to pay less for fuel then you're better off not speeding, accelerating slowly and driving so you seldom have to use the brakes. Learn how to combine multiple errands into one trip and avoid wasteful habits like jumping in the car for a quick trip to the store for a quart of milk.



 
Location: coldest N.America | Registered: May 03, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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thanks john i did some research after i posted and it mostly supported your reply however it also pointed to more efficent operation and better emissions that off set the the cost differental but it certently wont save any coin but it could reduce our need for opec oil but that just moves the need to china
here are some of the site if anyone wants to read
http://www.smokemup.com/tech/fuels.php
http://www.altfuels.org/backgrnd/altftype/m85.html
http://web.anl.gov/PCS/acsfuel...LPHIA_04-75_0059.pdf
http://e85.whipnet.net/yellow/m85.html


05 vw golf 17k on b-100
fuopec
 
Location: angier | Registered: June 27, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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"More efficient operation", not very likely with a clean burning fairly new Toyota, plus lower MPG is hardly "more efficient". My 20 year old Toyota EFI gasser has emission tests as clean as a new car.

The claims at smokemup.com are bogus. The MIT study on 'vintage' cars between '66 and '72, has no relation to modern EFI vehicles.

Find out where your fuel comes from and avoid using fuel from refineries that use OPEC oil. Most of the crude oil for fuel in America comes from non-OPEC countries. Last time I checked, no methanol was being produced in North America. If you want to use 100% domestic fuel convert to propane.



 
Location: coldest N.America | Registered: May 03, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Last time I checked, no methanol was being produced in North America.


This sight seems to think that the 18 US methanol plants make 2.6 billion gallons per year. But I'm not sure how accurate that is. I couldn't find any numbers from the methanol institute or the EIA.

quote:
has no relation to modern EFI vehicles.

This I agree with 100%. Based on my experience using ethanol in carbureted and FI engines, the burn efficiency gains are negated by the ECU. Since alcohols burn more completely, there is less unburnt fuel, which makes the engine think that the mix is too lean so it increases the amount of fuel. Of course this is purely anecdotal.

quote:
plus lower MPG is hardly "more efficient"
efficiency is a dimensionless number, ie no units. MPG is a measure of the travel distance specific volumetric fuel consumption. Every study I have ever seen shows that alcohol fuels are more efficient than large molecular weight fuels. Whether or not that translates into MPG depends on the density and the heat of combustion of the fuel.

To answer the original question:
I would doubt your wife's car will run on M50. In order to get get air to fuel ratios correct, you need more fuel. The stock ECU probably will not be able to compensate for that much. In my experience 40% is the max for ethanol. Also, ethanol is harder on rubber parts than gasoline (much like BD and diesel), methanol is worse than ethanol. You will end up going through fuel lines pretty quickly (which can be replaced). Again, much like BD, alcohols clean out the fuel system. If you do it all at once, you clog filters, pumps and injectors. Unlike a diesel however, the fuel systems are more forgiving. We recommend weening your engine slowly. 2 tanks of 5%, 2 @ 10%, 2 @ 20% etc.

As for fuel costs, again in my experience, the actual mileage changes will vary from car to car. The only way to know for sure is to talk to someone who has done it in your exact car or to do it yourself. Just keep in mind there is a risk to the fuel system. You have the advantage that you do not drive the car. So if you don't tell your wife what the fuel blend is, she can't bias the experiment. Just keep track of the mileage and see if it is worth it.

There is no generalizing when it comes to alcohol fuels. I have seen FI cars take 70% ethanol and run fine unmodified, and FI cars with E85 converter boxes not go past 65%. I have seen cars take 25% with no hit to MPG, and cars that have a noticeable drop at 15%.
 
Registered: September 16, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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North America to stop methanol production by 2010

10 May 2007 04:12 [Source: ICIS news]

SINGAPORE (ICIS news)--North American methanol production will cease to exist by 2010, a senior US-based consultant warned on Thursday.

Former production in the whole of North America stood at more than 7m tonnes/year but is now less than 1m tonnes/year.

"Eventually, the outlook for energy prices in North America convinced these producers they could no longer compete with the newer offshore plants with less expensive gas," he said.

There are currently only three plants of any significance including a 600,000 tonne/year Lyondell plant in Texas, a 120,000 tonne/year plant in Woodward, Oklahoma, and the 180,000 tonne/year Eastman plant in Tennessee, which is a coal-based plant.

Jordan highlighted that Celanese's 850,000 tonne/year plant in Edmonton closed at the end of March this year and predicts two other plants to close between 2008 and 2010.



 
Location: coldest N.America | Registered: May 03, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
North American methanol production will cease to exist by 2010


Sorry to derail the tread with moot information...

"In 2011, Methanex restarted our 470,000 tonne per year methanol plant in Medicine Hat, Alberta, Canada."

Taken directly from Methanx's website.
 
Registered: September 16, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Don't let all these naysayers dissuade you from doing some testing, I burn E85 (85% ethanol/15% gasoline in my old carbureted lawn tractor and get not only considerably more power but also at least a 10% improvement in fuel economy.

Note that high alcohol content fuel can cause problems with older vehicles rubber/components not designed for alcohol, hoses and seals can deteriorate or at least swell in size, this should not be a problem on vehicles built sence about 2000 (since the E10 mandated fuel).

Several states are about to up there ethanol content in gasoline from 10% to 15%, there testing shows it has no obvious effect on vehicles made since 2001.

I have read that most modern electronically controlled fuel injected vehicles can run fine on a 50/50 blend of E10 gasoline and E85 ethanol blend but I have never read anything about blending with Methanol. methanol IS stated to be more corrosive than ethanol so that is another thing to consider.

You can get alcohol fuel economies on par with gasoline. even better, along with occasional bursts of more power, if the engine control electronics can adjust both fuel injectors and the ignition timing, but most gasoline vehicles are not set up for this like flex-fuel vehicles are. If you are running a carburetor it will need to be re-jetted to get any improvement. Alcohols can ignite and burn at a far leaner air/fuel ratio than gasoline so they CAN produce better mileage if run at part throttle, like when at cruising speeds, if you keep your foot in the accelerator you WILL use more alcohol fuel but you will also smile a lot more.

Methanol has less energy than Ethanol (or gasoline) for the same volume so it will take more of it than it does ethanol. Alcohols sure burn much cleaner than gasoline though, almost NO carbon buildup in cylinders. The E85 cleaned up the cylinder and freed the piston rings that were causing the very excess oil burning that I had with the old lawn tractor, can go all mowing season now on only about a quart of oil.

Some electronic engine controls will work better than others, you will have to try different blends and see what happens.

There are also after-market modules that can be added to older computer controlled engine systems that allow the computer to control the fuel injectors and the ignition timing more nearly correctly for about any alcohol blend.
 
Location: fisher,illinois,usa | Registered: June 03, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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What 'naysayers'? The OP wanted to know if he could save money on gas by blending methanol. By all means test methanol if you want to, just don't expect to save any money at $2.30 per gallon for methanol. It will have to be less than half the price of petrol for any savings.



 
Location: coldest N.America | Registered: May 03, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Actually, I was interested in using Methanol in a WVO blend instead of K-1 for reducing viscosity. I fear the lower flashpoint makes it a bad idea.

As for methanol and ethanol for internal combustion engines, I'm reading that if you tune for ethanol (or methanol), you'll get better economy. It seems the problems come with the blends. It's kind of like a tune for diesel vs WVO. The flame travel speed, octane and other properties are very different. I want to use one or the other... gasoline or ethanol (E100). I bought an old F-150 with the 300-six engine as my test mule for straight ethanol as well as a gasifier to run on woodgas. But, that's another topic altogether.


2002 F-250, 7.3l on WVO since '04
'82 VW Rabbit diesel 1.6l na
'83 GMC 6.2l Class C RV
'85 F-350, 6.9l flat bed
'85 E-350, 6.9l cube van
2 Mercedes 300SD's
3 Chinese Changfa-style diesel generators- 12kw, 8kw & 7.5kw
Mitsubishi 3 cyl diesel generator/light tower
Kubota 2 cyl. diesel, water cooled air compressor
Onan 12.5kw air-cooled diesel genset
I run my company entirely on renewable energy including electricity from generators running on biofuels.

 
Location: El Dorado, Ark | Registered: July 04, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Please do open another discussion about the Ford 300 I6 for ethanol and/or wood gas. There are at least two different 300 I6 truck engines, the older long stroke one should be better for wood gas, the newer shorter stroke one might be better for ethanol?
 
Location: fisher,illinois,usa | Registered: June 03, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post



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In Josh Tickell's film, "Fuel", he shows motorists in the midwest gassing up with E30. These motorists were driving old cars and had no negative experiences on operating their motor vehicles on 30% ethanol. It was cheap due to high corn yields. The vehicles described were NOT converted in any way.

dshaw
 
Location: Sierra Vista, AZ | Registered: August 09, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I would like to mix 85% methonal with 15 gasoline
What agents do I need to use to keep the mixed together
Thanks
 
Registered: May 28, 2013Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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