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So I see the long discussion about supplemental hydrogen injection but what about running a car exclusivly on hydrogen? The information is few and far between on the net but it's out there. Thus far there is one company; united nuclear, attempting to break through all the government regulation and sell a conversion kit for you car and a home hydrogen electrolysis machine to run off a solar cell. no kit availible yet but I'm wondering if any garage engineer has designed their own system to do this? Any one out there yet? I don't believe any part of the concept would be that hard, the trick would be keeping the price of it affordable.


96 Dodge 2500 4x4 similar to sun wizard's WVO set up, with homemade manuel ball valves and injector line heaters.
 
Location: Portland OR | Registered: November 12, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Just did some web searching about United Nuclear last night, some time back they guestimated there system that supplied all the requierments for the vehicle as well as the hydrogen generator would cost between $7,000 and $10,000.

The problem is not so much the vehicle mods, these are about the same as if converting a gasoline engine to propane, the problem is the storage of the hydrogen. They are developing metal hydride storage cells, there Corvette test vehicle uses 4 tanks about the size of Scuba diving air tanks, they indicate these 4 tanks supply adaquate hydrogen for about a 350 mile range.

Reading about the new compressed air vehicles coming on the market, these are using wound carbon fiber tanks to supply around 3200 cubic feet of air at a pressure of 4500 pounds, these same type carbon fiber tanks are being discussed for hydrogen storage in the hydrogen vehicles. The hydrogen is flammable but they say that the when a wound fiber tank ruptures it creates a long slit along the length of the tank rather than causing the tank to shrapnel into pieces like steel tanks can do. If the location of the tank is designed correctly the gaseous hydrogen will be vented out of an auxilury tank enclosure and released into the air, worst case will be a fast rising fireball rather than an explosion, still sounds scarry, but at least since hydrogen burns with no visible flame the flashoff would NOT look like the special effects car crashes shown in movies, probably would scorch a few things close by though.
 
Location: fisher,illinois,usa | Registered: June 03, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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You know considering gas prices a hydrogen conversion would be fairly inexpensive. Especially if you got a group of friends together, bought one fill system, then just converted your cars separtly. The range on that vette I was very impressed with. You are thinking right along the same lines I am with the compressed hydrogen. You can buy carbon fiber air bottles firefighters used on ebay for fairly inexpensive and adapt. A pretty low tec version would be that carbon fiber bottle stacked together in the bed of a truck, surrounded by a thick steel box with a directed opening for a worst case scenario the hydrgen fireball would be directed. A surplus fill system with cascade large bottle and high pressure compressor with electolisis machines to get the hydrogen. Not sure how you would make sure that compressor would only fill your cascade air bottle system with hydrogen. Also add like a propane tank to your truck so you can use propane and fill on the road if you have to.......Probably a little too backwoods method and also over my head for me to do. Plus there must be a reason they don't pursue this and go for metal hydrides instead. Guess I will wait for the united nuclear system to come out and hopefully be the answer.


96 Dodge 2500 4x4 similar to sun wizard's WVO set up, with homemade manuel ball valves and injector line heaters.
 
Location: Portland OR | Registered: November 12, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by eou_edu:
So I see the long discussion about supplemental hydrogen injection but what about running a car exclusivly on hydrogen? The information is few and far between on the net but it's out there. Thus far there is one company; united nuclear, attempting to break through all the government regulation and sell a conversion kit for you car and a home hydrogen electrolysis machine to run off a solar cell. no kit availible yet but I'm wondering if any garage engineer has designed their own system to do this? Any one out there yet? I don't believe any part of the concept would be that hard, the trick would be keeping the price of it affordable.
Here's an idea. Use the solar energy to charge a battery and use the electricity directly. Get twice the mileage for the same energy input.


'05 CRD B100
'01 TDi B100

 
Location: Colorado | Registered: March 20, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Anybody price a Bottle of Hydrogen from a welding supply ???

I have a booklet where UCLA used an Impco Propane conversion kit, on a '73 Chevy 350 CU pickup. Got nearly the same mileage as the gasoline version. Can't remember if they stated the range, but, I could look it up, if anyone is interested.

Someone get a price for a bottle and I will look for the info. DEAL ??? Smile
 
Location: Costa Rica | Registered: October 01, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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A standard tank of propane will get approximately the same mileage as the gasser because the fuel density is similar. You can't get "liquid" hydrogen, or even H2 compressed enough to get 1/10 the range of the liquid fueled vehicle, and I mean in a standard welder's type tank.


'05 CRD B100
'01 TDi B100

 
Location: Colorado | Registered: March 20, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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UFO, you are probably correct, but, that wasn't the point. I believe the topic was, can an engine be run on straight hydrogen, and it can. Range has nothing to do with the topic.

No takers on the phone call for pricing ???
 
Location: Costa Rica | Registered: October 01, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Originally posted by Fla._Deadheader:
UFO, you are probably correct, but, that wasn't the point. I believe the topic was, can an engine be run on straight hydrogen, and it can. Range has nothing to do with the topic.

No takers on the phone call for pricing ???
I wasn't disputing that fact, but who would want to do it. It's simply not practical.


'05 CRD B100
'01 TDi B100

 
Location: Colorado | Registered: March 20, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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[/QUOTE]Here's an idea. Use the solar energy to charge a battery and use the electricity directly. Get twice the mileage for the same energy input.[/QUOTE]

I like this idea. But at the time this has problems too. You need a hybrid to do this. It's hard to even look at a hybrid for anything less than $10,000 more than what a non hybrid cost. For me I need a truck which chevy has the only one that isn't even out yet. From there you'd need to start modifying it, adding batteries, ect, ect. If I could figure out how to do this practially it would work best for me. I seem to have this addiction to loving things with motors. Classic cars, jet ski's, four wheelers, snowmobiles, ect. Now days I'm an enviromently friendly guy and feel guilty evertime I turn the key to one of these toys. Not to mention now days you could spend a lot of money on something like this and it will pay for itself sooner with fuel prices so high.

I check the price of hydrogen. A metal hydride tank cost about $1500 for 330 liters (90 gallons). These need to be heated to release the hydrogen, I'm not sure how that work though. Also thanks for the info on compressed hydrogen. I knew it wasn't as efficient as hydrides but I had no idea it was that inefficient.


96 Dodge 2500 4x4 similar to sun wizard's WVO set up, with homemade manuel ball valves and injector line heaters.
 
Location: Portland OR | Registered: November 12, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Check the U.S. GSA (government services administration) used vehicle website (HERE) for used hybrid and electric vehicles that are being auctioned by the federal government, I saw a all-electric factory-built Chevy pickup there a few months ago (from some goverment testing program). The feds are required by law to purchace 10% of there vehicles powered by verious alternative fuels, nobody seems to want to drive them so they go on sale after setting on a parking lot for a couple years, MANY electric, propane, natural gas, flex fuel, etc vehicles on there sale list, don't see any electric or hydrogen fueled vehicles listed just now but there list is always changing.
 
Location: fisher,illinois,usa | Registered: June 03, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Back to the original question , yes engines can run on 100% hydrogen , I've seen some on line , on TV and in person , the mining industry used some yrs ago , for several reasons .
eou_edu , you beat me to it , on the hydride tanks , I have seen those also , the H binds with the hydride and is released as needed when ignition is on & engine running .
But there is a problem with using H as fuel , called hydrogen imbritlement , the H affects the metal .
I have not looked too far into this , because at the time I was not considering H as an option at the time , but now with the H supplementing regular fuel [ gas / diesel / bio ] , I am interested if the small % of H used is as much of an issue ?
 
Location: St.Paul | Registered: March 24, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post



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Thank you both for the good info. I'll keep that government auction in mind. I've never heard of hydrogen embrittlement. I thought there had to be something more to hydrogen as to why there weren't so many more people using it for internal combustion. I'm still unclear on to what extent it's a problem. Is it a problem with hydrogen supplement? How much of a problem is it with 100% internal combustion hydrogen. Is it something like carbon build up or would it ruin your engine after 30,000 miles? I don't know, couple more hours of research I guess. The one thing that it does say is aluminum isn't very susceptable to this. Coincidentally united nuclear, the company that is getting ready to sell hydrogen conversion kits for internal combustion vehicles used a corvette for their test mule. Corvettes happen to have an all aluminum engine block and head..........Very interesting.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_embrittlement


96 Dodge 2500 4x4 similar to sun wizard's WVO set up, with homemade manuel ball valves and injector line heaters.
 
Location: Portland OR | Registered: November 12, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Not all aluminum , rings , valves , crank and other parts .
I am looking for answers to most of these also .
 
Location: St.Paul | Registered: March 24, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Here are two links on the subject. Both of them basically say hydrogen embrittlement is not a problem. Here's a sentence that sums it up. "Hydrogen embrittlement occurs when hydrogen is produce in an ionic or atomic state and penetrates the metal before it is joined with another atom of hydrogen to form a diatomic molecule of hydrogen. When hydrogen comes from electrolysis it is in diatomic form." I did get this information from a website that is trying to sell a hydrogen booster and I never like to base a decision like this on a website that is selling something or one guys personal experience. But at least it gives a right direction to go from here. From all the reading I've done in the past couple days I'm coming to the conclusion that a hydrogen engine will in fact run very well. Especially if it's done in the slew of direct injection engines that are coming out in the next couple years, where it runs even better than gas. However making the project finacially feasable is something that is very difficult. One guy I found built his own hydrogen infastructure with solar panels running electrolysis and a car runs on it, home heated, electricty, ect...........He spent $500,000 on it all. Here are the links:

http://www.pureenergysystems.com/store/Hydrogen-Boost/FAQ.htm#ten

http://pesn.com/2005/11/18/9600204_Hydrogen_Embrittlement_non-issue/


96 Dodge 2500 4x4 similar to sun wizard's WVO set up, with homemade manuel ball valves and injector line heaters.
 
Location: Portland OR | Registered: November 12, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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The answer is YES an internal combustion engine can be run on hydrogen alone. The price for a standard "welder type" tank is 140 dollars (US) through Airgas for the larger tank of the "welder" size tanks. I'm currently building a project truck, a 1971 Chevy Chyenne pick-up with a Buick 455 in it. You guessed it, POWERED BY COMPRESSED HYDROGEN!

Some of the pro's of hydrogen are:
1. environmental points - waste water only,reduced cool down time for exhaust vapor which is easily reassimilated into the environment, and cleans it as well.
2.safety - vapors do not linger, so only moderate ventilation is required to eliminate flash ignition, reduced exhaust temps
3.POWER! - increased flame travel speed (more torque throughout the power stroke, engine runs cooler (decreased thermal absorbtion in the cylinder which means more thermal power going transfer to the output shaft)
Lean burn efficiency (under the right conditions hydrogen can burn as little concentration ratio as %.05 of the available oxygen, than means with typical (non-urban) oxygen content of %20, hydrogen can burn at an air:fuel ratio of 100:1 based on molecular density. This allows power output to be adjusted bu only modulating the fuel intake (much like a diesel), not the air itself (no throttling, no carb, no throttle body). This is a huge advantage because of the lack of pumping losses, and if the piston and combustion chamber design doesn't retain any "hot-spots" your compatible compression ratio can be as low as 7.8:1 to as high as you want (diesel engines with 20:1 compression internals have been converted to run on compressed hydrogen)
Compressed hydrogen does not condense into liquid form when compressed at ambient temps in any non-cryostasis environment(no vaporization needed as with CNG or propane) so the fuel line can be direct from 1=TANK 2=REGULATOR 3=CONTROL VALVE 4=INTAKE MANIFOLD.

AND MANY MORE! Smile

Some of the con's are:
Space - No way to cost effectively or safely store, release and transport liquid in a normal motor vehicle (This means that the available hydrogen for transportation fuel is only available in gassious form, and the density is very small, so the required hydrogen to travel 300 miles takes up about 2-4 times the space in compressed tanks as space required for gasoline in liquid form to get the same distance). This holds true even though the engine is running more efficiently with less fuel due to lean burn, and no pumping losses. If you try to run at 14:1 ratio with gasseous carb or throttle, then fuel usage is inrealistic for civilian transportation.
Environment - if every engine in the world runs off hydrogen, then the humidity of the air itself would reach such astronimical concentration levels that the engines would not breathe well (more water means less oxygen available to burn) people would not breathe well, weather models would be useless, as the high humidity would upset the vapor loop, polar ice caps, land based water supply, flooding, rapid cooling of the Earth's atmosphere. Although water is quickly reassimilated into the environment, and the atmosphere will quickly condense it into liquid form, the human race will burn it faster than it can be assimilated. Also, with higher amount of water being recycled into the oceans, it upsets the delicate cycle of salt which conrols trade waters, oceanic flow, and ultimately our weather temperment. When the flow cycle slows, stops, and reverses we're all screwed. Only a very few small places on Earth will have inhabitale sustaining evironments to support human life.
Igition - the flame front of hydrogen gas is so fast that ignition must start at only 1-2 degrees before top dead center at idle. Speak to anyone who builds engines and they will tell you that with less advance available, ignition becomes very finicky to work with (akin to raising the compression ratio in a gasoline piston engine). It is very hard to manage ignition to obtain optimal ignition point for given variables (RPM, fuel enrichment, abient/combustion temperature) or to even get ignition at all. Although typically you can utilize the factory distributor timed at 1 or 2 degrees before top dead center, it is not an optimal ignition point, and power output suffers.
Cooler exhaust temps - I know I just mentioned this as a safety and environmental pro, but with lower exhaust temps, and typically lower exhaust density, it requires more exhaust duration/overlap to fully evacuate the exhaust vapor, which means less efficiency because les intake volume per rotation, and lower dynamic compression value (less compression, less power), although the majority of this problem is overcome by direct injection, the industrial requiremts to build these specialized injectors create 4 to 10 times as much carbon production by the companies that produce them, and the materials required to make them, thereby defeating the intent. effects are most effectively resolved by improving the existing component of the cam. Increase LSA (lobe separation angle), decrease overlap, adjust overall cam advance for optimal oprating rpm range as the aforementioned adjustments (overlap, LSA) greatly affect engine torque range, and applicable rpm range.
Atomization - because hydrogen for this application is in gasseous form, atomization is fast and allows lean burn. Sounds great, but if a hydrogen flame is happens outside of the engine, it can, and WILL atomize with damn near anything it comes into contact with, even man made materials designed to insulate from heat. Hdrogen can burn even the carbon/zircon ceramic plates designed to protect a space shuttle when entering the atmosphere. Toy around with a hydrogen torch and you will find that you can weld damn near anything together. I have seen TUNGSTEN CARBIDE rods welded to a BRICK! Yes, i mean a regular clay brick you build houses with. It is a well known fact that it is extremely hard to weld soft/white metals (such as aluminum) to hard/black metals (steel or iron) even for trained professionals. With a hydrogen gas flame and any weld material (tungsten, copper, nickel, or whatever you have the patience for) even a novice can create beautiful results. As I said before though, this means that if your pressurized fuel line is pierced or severed, and the gases are ignited, it can and will burn any and all materials the flame comes into contact with. If the hydrogen is allowed to accumulate before ignition, then you have a bomb like explosion.

AND MANY MORE!! Frown

I will let you guys know of my results, I will be posting vidoes on YouTube under the title Project Cheylark.

Thank you all for your time in reading this post!
 
Registered: September 26, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Project_Cheylark and RMForbes,

Please tell of your progress proving or disproving the H stuff. I know there are lots of ideas roaming in the Internet wild and the Internet is full of conflicting information; but, would love to hear what you found out personally.

I just spent several more hours reading on this and the flame speed and other characteristics range quite a lot amongst various authors. One author states he has been an expert in this area for something like 30 years and himself quotes sources who have over 30% difference in their estimations of the energy required for reverse electrolysis.

Anyways, I'm considering fitting a 1952 car with a propane conversion kit. A cursory research shows there is no good example of H2 gas powered cars but H2 is used to power rockets.

I'm not really concerned about the macroeconomic price of H2 or propane or gasoline but more about the price to move a car down the road.

Thanks!
TimJowers
P.S> It was ironic for everyone to quote laws of thermodynamics without even bothering to understand the experiments and then someone brought up the 1977 NASA research. Still my research is everyone who has tried the H2 gas addition to their engines saw at best a 15% mileage increase. One person said its because they forgot to correct their O sensor which basically wastes gas as the ) levels change. Who knows. Maybe you?
 
Location: Charlotte, NC | Registered: January 07, 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Hmm, http://www.hhokitsdirect.com/m...rogen_generator.php, 20% to 120% fuel MPG improvement? Hmmm.
 
Location: Charlotte, NC | Registered: January 07, 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Finally getting serious with photovoltaic and see that when I’m done installing panels to meet bleakest winter conditions, most of the year I’ll have vast quantities of intermittent excess electricity.
The Midnite Solar MPPT charge controllers (amazing!) come standard with means to divert surplus power- currently receiving way more power than my aged and soon to be upgraded 1500 pound battery can store, with just 3 275 watt panels.
Summertime~
SO seems like cracking water is the best way to store the surplus-
Stationary considerations are much different than transport- as are the possibilities:
Internal or external combustion gensets
Space heat
Water heat
Cooking
Refrigeration


Storing it could be done in various ways~

This message has been edited. Last edited by: SUB,
 
Location: Vancouver Island, Canada | Registered: September 30, 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Great!
Found some neat stuff:
http://www.hionsolar.com/solarhydrogen.pdf
 
Location: Vancouver Island, Canada | Registered: September 30, 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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