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Is Supplemental hydrogen injection a hoax or for real?
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It's a big list to be sure.
Unfortunately upon investigation, it's also a completely useless and irrelevant list.

First report I saw from NASA used bottled hydrogen or hydrogen used from a steam reformer.
Not in any way applicable to motor vehicle use of the type being discussed here.

The rest of the reports I saw there cost between $22-$197.
You'll excuse me if I don't rush out to buy them all in the hopes they may show something relevant.

If anyone has reports I CAN SEE without having to buy them that show this works With onboard generation applicable to Vehicle use as claimed by the kit manufacturers and tooth fairy believers, then I'll certainly change my position.

Until such time, it's still a complete and utter scam.
 
Registered: July 30, 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Just read the abstracts. That should give you a good idea. Your original request was for valid "peer reviewed" research and I gave it to you. If you don't want to pay for the results, thats your problem.

Bill


91 Buick Roadmaster wagon, GM 6.2 diesel conversion (gone but not forgotten
89 GMC 6.2 (Just got rid of the last pieces)
84 Mercedes 300D (gone to the great autobahn in the sky)
94 Cadillac Fleetwood (Sold before I could convert it)
 
Location: Manotick, Ontario Canada | Registered: July 02, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Yeah Right! Roll Eyes

You are taking the attitude that they prove it works. Without reading the research, how do you know that? Like the NASA report, they may also use totally irrelevant ways of adding the Hydrogen.

Even after reading this one thread, if people still want to believe in this rubbish, it will in fact be THEIR problem.

That said, I really think the stupid people are the ones like me that try to warn people of these scams and debunk them instead of taking the suckers without the smarts to work it out for themselves for all the money they are ignorant enough to waste on these things.

One day I'll wake up and make a fortune.
 
Registered: July 30, 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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First and foremost, I did read the research. Unlike you I did pay for the publications plus a bunch more unpublished stuff associated with university scale R&D projects. Not because I was a "believer" or to de-bunk a myth, but rather to find out if there was any credibility to the concept.

I did this under contract for a private investment firm who were looking into investing into a publicly traded company here in Canada. Their system worked, specifically when applied to large truck engines. Independantly verified results!!!!

In the end, the investment company, taking my advise, did not invest. Not because I found that the concept did not work, but rather the company refused to devulge HOWthey made it work. I spent close to 3 months on this project and came to the following conclusions:

1. The addition of small amounts of hydrogen, when combined with the oxygen produced in the electrolysis process, served to improve the combustion process in an internal combustion engine.

2. The amount needed per unit varies with engine type, design, displacement, native fuel type, engine loads etc.

3. Greatest improvement was seen on constant load, constant speed engines.

4. The HHO gas volume requires very precise mixture ratio control.

5. In general terms, the use of supplemental HHO creates a better and more uniform flame front and the conversion back to water results in a small amount of steam introduced into the combustion process.

6. Also in general, the results are slight improvements in output power (over and above the input power needed for electrolysis), significant reduction in combustion pollutants plus the ability to extend the part throttle lean threshold on spark ignition engines.

In conclusion, the concept works. Is it possible to do it with a couple of lengths of ABS pipe and a bunch of stainless steel wall plates? Highly unlikely (I know I tried) . The complexity of the control systems needed would place a steep price tag on the technology that would only see a return on investment when utilized on heavy fuel useage such as over the road truck engines or large industrial applications.

All nay sayers aside, I think that eventually someone will figure out how to do this economically with some level of repeatability. I for one beleive just the emmision profiles would justify the technology, negating the need for at least 90% of the aftertreatment curently used. The one company that seriously tried has since gone paws up and I lay most of the blame on the nay sayers and the company's reluctance to share at least the basics of their intellectual property. Most of their potential investors would have come to the same conclusions as I did.

Arbitrarily classifying anything as rubbish, without at least doing some basic research is reprehensible. All great advances were once referred to as impossible

Bill


91 Buick Roadmaster wagon, GM 6.2 diesel conversion (gone but not forgotten
89 GMC 6.2 (Just got rid of the last pieces)
84 Mercedes 300D (gone to the great autobahn in the sky)
94 Cadillac Fleetwood (Sold before I could convert it)
 
Location: Manotick, Ontario Canada | Registered: July 02, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Now we are getting somewhere!

With the system you saw that worked, What were the increases in performance and mileage you found?

Do you believe the systems currently being sold on the net and through other sources currently have the necessary technology/ components/ controls to work and if so, do you in your knowledge think they are capable of giving anywhere near the results claimed on average?

Are you currently aware of any system / setup/ plans that when fitted to a vehicle used for domestic purposes would work as claimed and if so, what are the benefits realized on fuel savings/ performance etc?

If you know of a system for vehicles currently being available that does work, could you please link to it and/ or tell us the price.

Thanks.
 
Registered: July 30, 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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And just to add, I have done a worthwhile amount of research and still at this time myself have not seen anything to say it works as promoted to passenger vehicle usage by anyone selling plans, information, kits or demonstrating their system. There is no doubt the CONCEPT works, the practicality is something quite different however.

The concept of Veg oil as Vehicle fuel works to.
As a complete replacement for fossil fuels however we also know is rubbish.

I set up a test engine with a friend of mine whom is involved in research and development in the aerospace industry so he knows how to set a legitimate test. We could find no improvement.
We followed a number of how to's and information and it resulted in a huge energy deficit.
Obviously if I get a bottle of hydrogen and feed it in at a substantial rate I'm going to see an improvement in economy of the regular fuel but what we are talking about here is basically on the fly hydrogen generation.

All the methods and theroys I have seen or tested result in net energy losses and do not come close to working as advertised or within the pretenses of which they are sold. I believe by definition that is a scam.
I have little doubt that it may be possible to live on the moon one day but if anyone was trying to sell me lunar real estate right now and tell me I could go live there next year, I'd say that was a sham and rubbish as well.
 
Registered: July 30, 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Nothing I have seen on the net, plans, products, "revolutionary brakthoughs" can possibly live up to the claims. Anyone advertising more than 7 to 10 percent increase in fuel mileage is dilusional. The physics just doesn't add up. I have not seen anything like these products that actually worked. If they did, it would be a total fluke.

You actually require very little HHO to acheive reasonable results. Too much and you actually lose power (HHO has much less BTU than the fuel mix it displaces) and too little has no effect. You have to find that "sweet spot" where airflow, fuel delivery and HHO content is just right. Build your generator properly and it will create more than enough to give you this supply.

The system I saw uses a form of mass airflow sensor and a fuel flow meter to determine this ratio. Granted this was on a diesel engine so don't know how they interfaced with spark ignition engines. They said there was no storage of the HHO but they must have used the headspace in the reformer to store small quantities as the supply was regulated. Turning the juice up or down on the plates would not be fast enough to do the job. There would always be a lag.

What is more interesting than the economy factor is how it effects the emmission profile of the engine. Get rid of 90% of the aftertreatment and the EGR we now use and you could easily get your 10-15%. If your using it on a spark ignition engine with computer controlled spark, you can actually turn up the lean threshold to 15.5 to 1 or better. Your engine will run like crap but at least it won't detonate itself to death.

The company I researched was Canadian Hydrogen Energy Company (CHEC). Last time I saw anythting on them was in 2008. Haven't heard from them since. Their website is gone and the domain name is up for grabs, so I assume they have gone paws up. Too bad as they were the only ones that actually had a system that worked. Will check to see if their still listed on the TSE.

Bill


91 Buick Roadmaster wagon, GM 6.2 diesel conversion (gone but not forgotten
89 GMC 6.2 (Just got rid of the last pieces)
84 Mercedes 300D (gone to the great autobahn in the sky)
94 Cadillac Fleetwood (Sold before I could convert it)
 
Location: Manotick, Ontario Canada | Registered: July 02, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Bill, Thank you for your post. I've been on the sidelines watching the whole Hydrogen scene for a few years. I see a lot of backyard tinkerers are all convinced they have something but don't posses the technical expertise nor equipment to document their scientific findings. Then the engineers all scoff at the idea. I had a feeling there was some real potential to use the hydrogen to impact the combustion event and to net out an increase of efficiency. It's kind of like how we use engine heat to modify the viscosity of WVO as a fuel.

I run my company on renewable energy: biodiesel and WVO in diesel trucks and a diesel engine for electricity. I'm working on biomass gasification and small scale ethanol as well. I wonder if the splitting of the H and the Oxygen would result in the same effect as water injection? For years, I have felt water/methanol injection would be a good preventive measure to remove any coking from the injectors and engine internals.

I may play with one of these systems for my constant-rpm generators. A spare, of course! And one that I can risk damage.

As for the engineers, I've been hearing "you can't do that" for over 30 years in my work in heavy industry. That usually just means it will take a little longer to work out the details.


2002 F-250, 7.3l on WVO since '04
'82 VW Rabbit diesel 1.6l na
'83 GMC 6.2l Class C RV
'85 F-350, 6.9l flat bed
'85 E-350, 6.9l cube van
2 Mercedes 300SD's
3 Chinese Changfa-style diesel generators- 12kw, 8kw & 7.5kw
Mitsubishi 3 cyl diesel generator/light tower
Kubota 2 cyl. diesel, water cooled air compressor
Onan 12.5kw air-cooled diesel genset
I run my company entirely on renewable energy including electricity from generators running on biofuels.

 
Location: El Dorado, Ark | Registered: July 04, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I have been watching with interest the comments regarding whether hydrogen on demand can provide a fuel saving.
I am looking to use it on static diesel gensets which in theory must provide it with its greatest potential. I have tried systems here in the UK with no positive results to date.
I have reached a point in time where the only question of any importance that needs asking is "show me a diesel genset working which is providing a substantial and constant fuel saving of 20%+ and I don't mind travelling the world to see one." This question is a conversation stopper instantly.
One unfortunate view I have is that if a system is providing a 20%+ fuel saving then why hasn't one of the world's BIG BOYS bought into the concept.
My one and only hope is that there is a successful system out there apparently producing parahydrogen and not orthohydrogen and is naturally being kept very secret. But in today's modern society how the hell do you keep anything so huge secret? It's impossible.
Therefore the conclusion must be that it is not available.
 
Location: Scotland | Registered: October 20, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Yes it is possible. Supplementing hydrogen into the combustion can be achieved relatively easily by getting one of these kits and setting it up to deliver to the inlet manifold. I have seen one of these that was made for a project. It was fairly simple to attach. Bolting it onto the body and connecting a pipe to the inlet manifold. Then the wires have to be connected to the battery and the fuel cell and done. He done tests on this for fuel effiecency, power, knock and wear and he rekoned that power, and efficency increased while knock and wear decreaased considerably. Also in regards to solely hydrogen powerd vehicles (HPV). But there are anumber of problems with this. First, the amount of energy(electricity) used to seperate hydrogen from water is too large to be econimacal during electroysis. So producing it onboard is not viable. However if you believe moores law, batteries in the future will get smaller and store more making onboard production with a fuel cell viable. Second, as hydrogen is very exsplosive, and if not produced onboard it needs to be stored which will mean in a tank and as hydrogen is a sparse gas it will need to be compressed which in effect is like driving around with a bomb attached to the car. There has been developments on the safty issue's but personnaly I wouldnt feel safe. Thirdly the infrastructure for a hydrogen economy is not there. Honda recently opened a fueling station but these are far and few between. If you want to get into more detail the freedomCar reports are the Joint US governments and Private companys on hydrogen powered vehicles.
 
Location: Kerry, Ireland | Registered: January 25, 2012Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Ttommy,

quote:
The concept of Veg oil as Vehicle fuel works to.
As a complete replacement for fossil fuels however we also know is rubbish.


But you must admit that it does work as a complete replacement for individual vehicles.

dva
 
Location: Yorks,England | Registered: June 30, 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post



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quote:
Originally posted by dva:
Ttommy,

quote:
The concept of Veg oil as Vehicle fuel works to.
As a complete replacement for fossil fuels however we also know is rubbish.


But you must admit that it does work as a complete replacement for individual vehicles.

dva


For an infinitesimal number of the over all vehicle population, of course.
 
Registered: July 30, 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Not so small for vehicles available in the uk; assuming you convert it to biodiesel first of course.


mathematical elegance -- desired result achieved with minimal complication
 
Location: Manchester UK | Registered: June 03, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Hi Guys,
At next days I will install a hydrogen kit to my ford focus 1.8 tddi for testing. If it is good I will pay for it, if not, I will give it back. I hope to not damage my engine. I use it with B100 at last months.
 
Registered: July 28, 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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The company I researched was Canadian Hydrogen Energy Company (CHEC). Last time I saw anythting on them was in 2008. Haven't heard from them since. Their website is gone and the domain name is up for grabs, so I assume they have gone paws up. Too bad as they were the only ones that actually had a system that worked. Will check to see if their still listed on the TSE.

Bill[/QUOTE]

The company went under after scamming dealers who had to refund money to their customers. If it "worked" the stock would have been a great investment. Google "Ira Lyons", the purveyor of this apparent fraud. Interestingly, I am watching HLNT on the penny stocks, who sell an identical system that may or may not work. They have a large number of "credible" dealers and employees. Caveat emptor.

To the guys that are experimenting...I suggest that since hydrogenis a fuel, and that since itis being introduced into the intake manifold, thus replacing some of the air, that the A/F ratio is actually decreasing defeating the purpose. Therefore, I suggest you inject ONLY the oxygen side, wich will enrich the "burnability" and speed of combustion. This should lessen the fuel needed to achieve the same BTU usage (power). In fact, I suggest that if any benefit from these systems is evident, it is because the oxygen is being included, not because of the effect of miniscule amounts of HH. I am tempted to just buy a bottle of oxygen, vent it in a controlled way to my auto (gas) engine at a fixed throttle, and watch the RPMs. If it improves, take it to a smog control station an pay to do some readings under load. But I think I
ll wait for some replies.
 
Registered: July 08, 2012Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Boom! That is what happens when you try to introduce oxygen to the system that is why NOS was invented.


Robert
In Fort Lauderdale running a 2006 Jeep Liberty CRD 2 veg tanks HOH 2 upgraded greasecar vavles 3/8 fuel line 5/8 heater line HOH Hose wrapped filter. Injector Line heater on the Common Rail. 2nd car 2005 Mercedes CDI, Raw Power fuel pump, 36 gallon veg tank in trunk coolant heated HOH, rubber hose wrapped fuel filter, FPHE, 3 greasecar valves, Common rail line heater.
 
Location: Ft Lauderdale, FL | Registered: June 01, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Adding pure oxygen to the engine without increasing fuel will simply lean the fuel out and cause a blowtorch effect on the pistons. Yeah, It could run nice and clean ( Dunno about the Nox with the high combustion temps though) Right up till the time you recover your pistons from the bottom of the sump.

On a diesel the only thing you will gain is more top end power. For most of the time the engine will run with an excess of oxygen anyway at part throttle. That's one of the reasons all this crud about an engine only burning xx% of it's fuel is flawed. The tooth fairy believers don't take fact and physics into account.

I can see why though. Their fantasy is much more beleivable when you discount things like reality, fact and laws of Physics.

Put those things aside and pretty much anything is possible especially the crap they are trying to scam a buck with.
 
Registered: July 30, 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I found this site while searching to find if there is any documentation of hydrogen injection resulting in greater diesel engine efficiency. A guy with a diesel powered Chevy Express work van told me he gets 10% more mpg using hydrogen produced by electrolysis with some kind of plate rig that he has made.

I haven't found any convincing information but I offer the following rationale to support the sceptics:

Consider all of the diesel powered trains and diesel powered ships that are burning fuel derived from crude at about $100 per barrel. Diesel trains generate a lot of electricity and could easily produce hydrogen or carry it with them. Ships are well suited to do the same. Fuel cost is a big factor for both of those transportation modes. There is enough competition in the operation and production of diesel engines and ships that if it was cost-effective it would be widely used.

I have not been able to find a single citation about hydrogen injection being used by either diesel train engines or large ships.

Based on complete absence of any reports of successful use in those application I conclude that it doesn't save any money.
 
Registered: August 25, 2012Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Fotis,

quote:
At next days I will install a hydrogen kit to my ford focus 1.8 tddi for testing.


How are the tests going ?

dva
 
Location: Yorks,England | Registered: June 30, 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I thought if making(somehow, still doing research on the best way to go about this) a hygrogen generator in a larger scale and collect it and bottle it and attatch it to a vehicle for some sort of way to add it the the existing fuel.
 
Registered: November 30, 2012Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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