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Is Supplemental hydrogen injection a hoax or for real?
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quote:
What you speak of are hypothetical energy sources that we don't currently have efficient technologies to exploit.



Well waste biomass could simply be burnt in power stations to generate electricity. It already is to some extent. There is enough globably from current waste streams to provide ten times as much power as we currently need.


mathematical elegance -- desired result achieved with minimal complication
 
Location: Manchester UK | Registered: June 03, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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20 or 21% Nuclear


So five times as many nuke plants would do it; and breeder reactors and fast breeder reactors do produce more fuel than they consume so your fear of running out in 20 years is unfounded.


mathematical elegance -- desired result achieved with minimal complication
 
Location: Manchester UK | Registered: June 03, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Nevertheless, one may wonder why you never saw (have never seen) any petrol pumps that read (read) to the 3rd decimal place, particularly since you then illustrated a petrol pump that does, in fact, do so...???
Do you think the answer to this could be because I had never seen a petrol pump that reads to the third decimal point?



Tilly. You said:

"I have had the auto shut off click off when the tank was half empty. If this is how you are running your tests they are meaningless.

I have never seen a petrol pump that reads to the third decimal place."



The context shows that you were trying to naysay WalMarts claim that SH is a viable supplementary fuel option.

That being the case, one may wonder why you chose to mention a fuel pumps auto shut-ff featutre when no mentuion was made in the text you quoted...

As well, as you know, statements that start off with "I have never seen" are commonly intended to cast doubt against the opposing argument at hand without any particular conclusive proof.

That was about as valuable to the topic as saying something like "I have never seen a living coelocanth".

Was there any particular reason you mentioned having never seen such a petrol pump?
 
Registered: September 26, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Is a simple statement that I have never seen something an objection?



Commonly, yes.
 
Registered: September 26, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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johno
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Posted 16 August 2008 10:23 AM Hide Post
My airconditioning system condenses a considerable amount of water when working. Why not use it to provide makeup water for the HHO system, thus eliminating the need to stop to refill. I haven't emasured the amount of condensation, so it's possible that I won't be able to collect as much as 4 ounces per 100 miles. OTOH, if I collected MORE than 4 ounces per 100 miles, then I could sell it to other HHO'ers who've run out of water and are stopped along the side of the road.

Sorry, couldn't resist some humor. I'm not convinced that there isn't some truth to HHO injection doing "something" that enables clean, lean-burn mixtures. It's just that there has been no convincing demonstration that I've seen, yet.



Oh look, an open mind! (and a witty one too, at that!)

Let me grab my camera...
 
Registered: September 26, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Hello Welder
quote:
Originally posted by welder:
As well, as you know, statements that start off with "I have never seen" are commonly intended to cast doubt against the opposing argument at hand without any particular conclusive proof.
I do not know that at all.
Please provide three reliable websites that support your assertion.
quote:
That was about as valuable to the topic as saying something like "I have never seen a living coelocanth".
Hey neither have I. Does that mean we are nearly related?
quote:
Was there any particular reason you mentioned having never seen such a petrol pump?
If someone had said they had a six legged frog I would probably say I had never seen one before too.



Now, perhaps you can explain what petrol pumps that read to the third decimal have to do with this scam.
Surely you do not believe in it too






 
Location: ลึก ประเทศอินเดีย | Registered: March 03, 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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explain how a turbocharher or supercharger improves HP and fuel economy? After all it is only adding extra air to the mixture? Why should that have any effect at all? It takes energy to turn the turbo or supercharger so it should decrease both.

Turbochargers are spun by expanding exhaust gas through their turbine wheel. That's energy that would otherwise have been wasted when the exhaust gas expands into the tailpipe.



I'm wondering aloud if the resistance the turbo blades impart anainst the exhaust gasses arent's somehow impinging against the general force of the engines' momentum and power stroke?

If so, it is clearly negligable, and ultimately yields a net gain due to increased combustion effeciency.

My point being, if turbos fight engine forceAT ALL, then they essentially questions the naysayers theory that supplemental hydrogen is a hoax because it steals engine combustion energy as electrical alternator output. After all, the poistons are still pushing the exhaust gasses against turbo resistance, therefore, the system is losing something somewhere.

I'd have to figure that since an internal combustion engine is so innefficient, relative to a stirling etc, that there may be untapped advantages as yet waiting to be decried as false.

My machinist freind is currently enjoying at least 20% less fuel consumption due to his his advanced custom designed SH system. I'm sure he'll be happy to supply the naysayers with no evidence whatsoever...
 
Registered: September 26, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Hello Welder
quote:
Originally posted by welder:
As well, as you know, statements that start off with "I have never seen" are commonly intended to cast doubt against the opposing argument at hand without any particular conclusive proof.
I do not know that at all.
Please provide three reliable websites that support your assertion.



No thanks, I'll just leave your dishonest statement to prove how desperate you are to appear correct.


Are you seriously claiming that you are inexperienced with common English?

Whether you are or not, most readers are. Think how this looks...
 
Registered: September 26, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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That was about as valuable to the topic as saying something like "I have never seen a living coelocanth".
Hey neither have I. Does that mean we are nearly related?



Actually, I have seen them at the Vancouver aquarium, so thankfully, we're not related at all.
 
Registered: September 26, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Was there any particular reason you mentioned having never seen such a petrol pump?
If someone had said they had a six legged frog I would probably say I had never seen one before too.



Nice try at deflecting responsability for dishonest argument...

Anyone following this thread knows that 6 legged frogs aren't related to the topic at all, yet you stated that you haven't seen petrol pumps that measure to the 3rd decimal place, as though that has some bearing to the topic.



Again I ask you, what does this 3rd decimal place accurrate petrol pump have to do with supplemental hydrogen?
 
Registered: September 26, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Hello Welder
quote:
Originally posted by welder:
Again I ask you, what does this 3rd decimal place accurrate petrol pump have to do with supplemental hydrogen?
Thank goodness you finally agree. As I have said a number of times,three decimal points have no meaning in this discussion.
Thank goodness that is cleared up!

Now perhaps you can tell us what your thoughts are about this HHO scam.






 
Location: ลึก ประเทศอินเดีย | Registered: March 03, 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post



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Wind and Solar are both to unreliable to sustain a consistent demand by our national electrical grids



Well storage and sufficient capacity can overcome those issues.


mathematical elegance -- desired result achieved with minimal complication
 
Location: Manchester UK | Registered: June 03, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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And yes I was speaking of potential amp output on my alternator. 105amp idle, 220 amps at 1200 rpm. Don't believe it, go to DB Electrical who makes the alternators...of course you might want to get an independent verification of that as well.



I completely believe you. The point is that there are no idle amps being wasted that can be put to good use. Any draw has a fuel cost.


mathematical elegance -- desired result achieved with minimal complication
 
Location: Manchester UK | Registered: June 03, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Who's the post deleting phantom here Ant? (judged by context)

Is this the work of the infamous JG, or some nervous newbie?


Sorry Welder I have no idea what you are trying to say here. Is it aimed at me or the other guy? I haven't deleted anything. Has he?


mathematical elegance -- desired result achieved with minimal complication
 
Location: Manchester UK | Registered: June 03, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Is a simple statement that I have never seen something an objection?
I am sure there are many things that I have never seen that do exist.


In fairness Tilly the context was such that it was infered and hard to believe not implied.

I went out and checked my local pumps to see before confirming that they too were two digit. I did think it indicated a careless lie on wallmart's part. I now retract that assumption as it seems three digit displays do exist although they are the exception.

So not needfully a lie but certainly the methodology with the autoshutoff makes three decimal places of accuracy a nonsense claim.


mathematical elegance -- desired result achieved with minimal complication
 
Location: Manchester UK | Registered: June 03, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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My point being, if turbos fight engine forceAT ALL, then they essentially questions the naysayers theory that supplemental hydrogen is a hoax because it steals engine combustion energy as electrical alternator output.


Unfortunately not. The exhaust is already ejected at pressure and this energy is used to turn the turbines and the exhuast exits the tailpipe with less energy than it otherwise would.

You can not directly compare a turbine system with an electrical system that way.

If they did steal a little more energy due to some kind of backpressre ie "if turbos fight engine forceAT ALL" it would not validate the HHO system because the majority of the energy in the turbine still comes from a pressurised gas stream that really is being wasted out the tailpipe. This differs from the HHO system where the alternator draw is the entire energy source for the HHO made. There can be no gain of energy as such this way. Only a loss.

This does not meant that HHO cannot work to increase milage, only that it does not do so by extra energy from the hydrogen. If HHO does work it is likely by either increasing efficiency of the thermodynamic cycle by igniting the fuel faster while the piston is still TDC or by allowing a leaner burn to be reliably used.

The tests done so far suggest that whilst the thermodynamic efficiency increase is theoretically possible it is probably not happening in practice with these systems.

Lean burn however seems like a serious possiblity even though the amounts of HHO are much lower than the experimental H injection which established the principle.


mathematical elegance -- desired result achieved with minimal complication
 
Location: Manchester UK | Registered: June 03, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Hello ant
You can believe what you like.

As for the turbocharger question
Do a google on turbocharger parasitic loss for more info.
I am not sure how this relates to the magic involved in the HHO nonsence






 
Location: ลึก ประเทศอินเดีย | Registered: March 03, 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Hello ant
You can believe what you like.

As for the turbocharger question
Do a google on turbocharger parasitic loss for more info.
I am not sure how this relates to the magic involved in the HHO nonsence



Thank you Tilly. If you did not intend to imply it then it was a little careless of you to create a common mistaken inference; C'est la vie.

The turbo does not really relate I was simply clearing up a misaprehension that Welder suggested.

HHO may actually work to enhance lean burn capability despite the small amounts. We need a proper test of that exact thing to be sure.

Have you been able to find one?


mathematical elegance -- desired result achieved with minimal complication
 
Location: Manchester UK | Registered: June 03, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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"Update on my Jeep with 3 cell Mason Jar system."

base mpg was 17.

first tank was just below 15mpg.
second tank was 16.5mpg.
third tank was 16.25mpg.

It seems to take less fuel for the first half of the tank.
So I'm going to try to fill up halfway and see if that makes the numbers look better. Now I must remind you, I have only installed the 3 cells. I've done nothing with the MAP sensor or the O2 sensors."


GREENVILLE, S.C. July 30 2008
-- Can a gas-saving device being sold on the Internet actually double your fuel mileage, as the makers claim?

Water For Gas: Final Results

"Three weeks ago, WYFF News 4's Tim Waller went in search of that answer by purchasing the "water4gas" system for $97
To test that claim, Waller sought help from Greenville Tech's Center for Automotive Technology. Instructors agreed to build the device and install it on a 1990 Buick Century.

Early test results were encouraging.

"It works! We saw an instant change in how the car was running," Howard said earlier this month when the device was first installed. "The sensor values changed. I know for a fact fuel is being produced in this bottle."
As promised, the Mason jar filled with water and baking soda began to produce a hydrogen, and seemed to give the car an extra burst of energy. But officials said 2-3 weeks of road-testing would be required to see if the water4gas system increased mileage.

Now, three weeks later, the final test results are in.

"No. It did not improve mileage," said Sumner Huckaby, Dean of Greenville Tech's Center for Automotive Technology.

In fact, officials said they noticed a mileage decrease after installing the water4gas device.

" It dropped 2 miles per gallon," said automotive instructor Preston Howard."


PS I am wondering if the type of jar used makes a difference.
For instance most people seem to use Mason Jars, but I have seen a few who used Ball Jars.
I wonder if one or the other has been Optomized for producing HHO






 
Location: ลึก ประเทศอินเดีย | Registered: March 03, 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Here is an interesting video






 
Location: ลึก ประเทศอินเดีย | Registered: March 03, 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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