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Is Supplemental hydrogen injection a hoax or for real?
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I see these hydrogen boost kits all over the internet for around $1000 that claim to reduce fuel consumption by a guaranteed 10%. And the real kicker is you only add water every 1000km and it only draws 13 amps of power from the alternator, sounds like BS to me, but I am wondering if anyone here has had personal experience with these system?
 
Registered: April 01, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I think that 13 amps would not be that bad for a diesel running dual batteries and a 200amp alternator.
 
Registered: April 01, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Once again the assumption is being made that the H2 is being used as a fuel. It is not. It is merely being used to improve the combustion characteristics of the host fuel. Making it on-board precludes the necessity of storing it in a high pressure container. Do your research and you will find that this is a well documented method of improving efficiencies and reducing (significantly) the emissions.

It is unfortunate that this technology has landed in the hands of so many conspiracy/backyard hack/multi level marketing, get rich quick types that have soured the opinions of those that wish to prove (or disprove)this technology.

Bill


91 Buick Roadmaster wagon, GM 6.2 diesel conversion (gone but not forgotten
89 GMC 6.2 (Just got rid of the last pieces)
84 Mercedes 300D (gone to the great autobahn in the sky)
94 Cadillac Fleetwood (Sold before I could convert it)
 
Location: Manotick, Ontario Canada | Registered: July 02, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I also understand that a hydrogen generator on board can help with mileage, etc. And I know there are those out there that screw good things up by a "get rich quick" scheme.
Sooo, question is, does anyone know of a legitimate set of plans or kit that actually works?
By the way, I do have an 8V71 Detroit Diesel with a LARGE alternator and two 8D batteries. So maybe I have a viable candidate for such a creature! Razz
Thanx,
Chaz


Chaz
Pix of my CF- http://s58.photobucket.com/alb...Skulptor/Centrifuge/
1973 GMC bus w/8V71 Detroit
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Passive solar underground home at www.amstudio.us
 
Location: Batesville IN. | Registered: September 15, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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No Hydrogen is not a hoax. I have a friend that actually sells these units and asked me to see if I can help him and get this to the transportation industry.
I am a big advocate for hydrogen and after doing a bit of digging i found out that there are many people and companies doing research on hydrogen for any use.
Products are available from a $75 Kit to complete units from Canada that run about $14,000 to $16,000 Canadian.
Typically a unit of a big rig will use about 20 amps and produce about 1% of your actual fuel.
Now for the skeptics, yes electrolysis is not the most efficient way of producing hydrogen but the goal is not to produce fuel for the engine rather a fuel suplement. So it does not actually give extra power it rather helps to spread the flame a lot faster than regular combustion. Thus enabeling the fuel to burn more thourough resulting in lower emission, higher degree of fuel burned and higher efficiency.
Flame speed:
hydrogen in oxygen : 3900 meters per sec
petroleum in oxygen : 30 cm per sec

So in conclusion yes it does help you gas milage.
krisztian
 
Registered: February 18, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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If that's true then please provide the results of personal tests that prove the claims made, and scientific tests to prove it.
Where does the energy for the 20 amps come from, if not by burning extra fuel?
quote:
So it does not actually give extra power it rather helps to spread the flame a lot faster than regular combustion. Thus enabeling the fuel to burn more thourough resulting in lower emission, higher degree of fuel burned and higher efficiency.



 
Location: coldest N.America | Registered: May 03, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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PT Barnums famous quote is as true today as it was when it was spoken, "There is a sucker born every minute" Will Rodgers famous quote also applies here "A fool and his money are soon parted".
 
Location: West Michigan | Registered: April 26, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by hotsch:
No Hydrogen is not a hoax. I have a friend that actually sells these units and asked me to see if I can help him and get this to the transportation industry.
I am a big advocate for hydrogen and after doing a bit of digging i found out that there are many people and companies doing research on hydrogen for any use.
Products are available from a $75 Kit to complete units from Canada that run about $14,000 to $16,000 Canadian.
Typically a unit of a big rig will use about 20 amps and produce about 1% of your actual fuel.
Now for the skeptics, yes electrolysis is not the most efficient way of producing hydrogen but the goal is not to produce fuel for the engine rather a fuel suplement. So it does not actually give extra power it rather helps to spread the flame a lot faster than regular combustion. Thus enabeling the fuel to burn more thourough resulting in lower emission, higher degree of fuel burned and higher efficiency.
Flame speed:
hydrogen in oxygen : 3900 meters per sec
petroleum in oxygen : 30 cm per sec

So in conclusion yes it does help you gas milage.
krisztian


Anecdotes may as well be lies, they are no better, please post a link to actual scientifically monitored and measured tests to support these meaningless anecdotes.
 
Location: West Michigan | Registered: April 26, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I've been testing my unit for about 2 weeks and it does seem to work. I paid $45.00 for the plans and the unit cost less than $20.00 to make from parts bought at the hardware store if i don't have them at home. It may not be the most efficient way to produce hydrogen but for the cost, you can't beat it. Also I only use a 5 amp fuse.
 
Location: Hawkinsville, Ga. 31036 | Registered: October 24, 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by john galt:
quote:
PT Barnums famous quote is as true today as it was when it was spoken, "There is a sucker born every minute" Will Rodgers famous quote also applies here "A fool and his money are soon parted".

Quite true, even if it wasn't PT Barnum's quote. Google to find the true story.

quote:
it does seem to work
that dosen't hack it in the real world. Lots of things "seem to work" but don't.

The most compelling argument of all is the simple fact that if it worked, Honda and Toyota would be using it by now.


I rufuse to accept your reality and choose to create my own Smile
 
Location: West Michigan | Registered: April 26, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Here is a small part of the the theory of the way internal combustion engines work.
Efficiency is the max temp minus the minimum temp divided by the min. temp. In other words if an engine combusts at a higher temp and exhausts at a lower temp it is more efficient. In theory that is exactly what a hydrogen boost would do to a gasoline or diesel engine. It does this because it burns faster and hotter so the high is hotter and it burns earlier so the exhaust is cooler. I have no clue on how efficient it is to produce the hydrogen but once produced the engine "any engine" should run more efficient and with far less emissions. Sounds good on paper huh! Smile


2005 Dodge Ram 2500 Cummins Diesel.
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B100 in summer....blends in Winter depending on weather.
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Location: Sierra Nevada Mountains, California | Registered: November 14, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post



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Take that same theory and that explains why bioD has less HP and SVO even less?????


2005 Dodge Ram 2500 Cummins Diesel.
Woodmizer Sawmill with 42 hp Kabota diesel.
JD loader
B100 in summer....blends in Winter depending on weather.
GL 300 liter processor
Building a 400 liter GL Push Pull
 
Location: Sierra Nevada Mountains, California | Registered: November 14, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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On March 14th, I will be installing a kit from www.mileagemaker.us in my F-250. I will let you all know my results. I have calculated my average fuel economy on diesel 19mpg, Biodiesel 18.5mpg, and VO 15mpg. I will let you all know what average results I acheive after installation of the kit. Expect preliminary results sometime around early April.


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Location: Centralia, WA | Registered: March 06, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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This may be overkill but...

Influence of Hydrogen-Rich-Gas Addition on Combustion, Pollutant Formation and Efficiency of An Ic-SI Engine
Document Number: 2004-01-0972

Date Published: March 2004

Author(s):
Enrico Conte - ETH Swiss Federal Inst. of Technology Zurich
Konstantinos Boulouchos - ETH Swiss Federal Inst. of Technology Zurich

Abstract:
The addition of hydrogen-rich gas to gasoline in an Internal Combustion Engine seems to be particularly suitable to arrive at a near-zero emission Otto engine, which would be able to easily meet the most stringent regulations.

In order to simulate the output of an on-board reformer that partially oxidizes gasoline, providing the hydrogen-rich gas, a bottled gas has been used.

Detailed results of our measurements are here shown, such as fuel consumption, engine efficiency, exhaust emissions, analysis of the heat release rates and combustion duration, for both pure gasoline and blends with reformer gas. Additionally simulations have been performed to better understand the engine behavior and NOx formation.

Results show that: When running at \gl=1 and without EGR, addition of hydrogen-rich gas produces a significant shortening of the very first phase of combustion (inflammation phase) rather than of the remaining combustion process; Addition of hydrogen-rich gas allows to run the engine at extremely high \gl or EGR rate; When running at the highest possible \gl or EGR (limited by COV increase) the duration of all phases of combustion remains almost unaffected by the diluents; In all conditions a significant decrease of UHC and NOx emissions has been observed; In all conditions a significant increase of engine efficiency has been measured, which seems to be enough to compensate and overcome the losses due to the partial oxidation of Gasoline in the Reformer.


"Water Flows Downhill and People Take The Path of Least Resistance"
 
Location: Alberta, Canada | Registered: March 06, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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There is no question that things like propane and hydrogen injection aid in the efficiency of internal combustion engines, but these ersatz little things these hucksters are selling do not produce enough of any kind of gas to make any difference in performance.
 
Location: West Michigan | Registered: April 26, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Propane has been being used for many decades ,
H2 is just doing the same , except making your own at some cost [ so does the propane ] .
There may be some trying to make a dollar [ this is what everybody anywhere is doing , some may do by what others call an honest means , some not ] , if you can make things your self great , others can do anything with there hands .
Here we are on a alt fuel site , and we still get nay sayers [ that can be a good thing to help ] but to just say no with no looking at history [ propane ] is some sort of mental illness , for a lack of terms .
Point being , that either extreme is almost always wrong , some where in the middle is usually closer to the truth ,when so much bull is flying around .
 
Location: St.Paul | Registered: March 24, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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After doing a little research. It takes 5%-7% hydrogen injection to make a difference. Not doable onboard from an alternator. Very doable if you are buying or making from another source like bioD or solar.


2005 Dodge Ram 2500 Cummins Diesel.
Woodmizer Sawmill with 42 hp Kabota diesel.
JD loader
B100 in summer....blends in Winter depending on weather.
GL 300 liter processor
Building a 400 liter GL Push Pull
 
Location: Sierra Nevada Mountains, California | Registered: November 14, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Exactly.
 
Location: West Michigan | Registered: April 26, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Drewry:

Where did you find the information regarding the ratios required? My information has been that the fractional requirement is much less.

Despite the nay sayers, I am still investigating this process and will have the opportunity to do some testing on a dyno later on this summer.

Bill

"the only science that is useful, is science proven"


91 Buick Roadmaster wagon, GM 6.2 diesel conversion (gone but not forgotten
89 GMC 6.2 (Just got rid of the last pieces)
84 Mercedes 300D (gone to the great autobahn in the sky)
94 Cadillac Fleetwood (Sold before I could convert it)
 
Location: Manotick, Ontario Canada | Registered: July 02, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I just got back from an international renewable energy conference in DC. The company that has been running full-page ads in magazines like Pop Mechanics and others had a booth. Actually, they had what was more like four booths... big buck investment.

At first I thought this is one of those "too good to be true" things but I'm not so sure anymore. Their booth was flooded by scientists from all over the world asking about kits for their own personal cars!

Their system generates hydrogen and oxygen which are injected into the intake air and fuel for gasoline engines. On that one, they guarantee a 50% increase in fuel mileage but report most folks get double the mileage.

The kit is simpler than installing a two tank veggie system. But, it does require some reprogramming on the car's onboard computer to really get the biggest gains.

They have another system that will work on gas or diesel engines. It incoporates a catalytic converter on the inetake side rather than the exhaust side. They are currently in EPA testing, awaiting for approval.

Snake oil? I don't know yet. Quite frankly, thier booth was staffed by eager dealers who reminded me of most of us... enthusiasts looking for an alternative to imported oil. When I asked a representative of the agency sponsoring the convention, she mentioned they have recently contracted with some university in the area to upgrade their fleet of vehicles. That sounds like some credibility there.

I got the card of a guy who is waiting on his kit to arrive. He's a two-tank diesel guy like most of us. I'll let y'all know when I hear back from him with some real world results.

[URL=http://www.picctv.com/ts ]This [/URL] is the company's website. It is listed as http://www.picctv.com/ts but the page jumps to the other one.


2002 F-250, 7.3l on WVO since '04
'82 VW Rabbit diesel 1.6l na
'83 GMC 6.2l Class C RV
'85 F-350, 6.9l flat bed
'85 E-350, 6.9l cube van
2 Mercedes 300SD's
3 Chinese Changfa-style diesel generators- 12kw, 8kw & 7.5kw
Mitsubishi 3 cyl diesel generator/light tower
Kubota 2 cyl. diesel, water cooled air compressor
Onan 12.5kw air-cooled diesel genset
I run my company entirely on renewable energy including electricity from generators running on biofuels.

 
Location: El Dorado, Ark | Registered: July 04, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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